Listener Q&R #10: Is Specializing Worth It? How Do You Know When Work Is Optional?

On this listener Q&R (Question and Response) episode of the Dentist Money Show, Matt and Ryan break down what it really takes (financially and personally) to transition from general dentistry to a specialty. They explain why understanding lifestyle and location tradeoffs is just as important as analyzing income potential, what it means to be “work optional,” and how to evaluate your readiness for a sabbatical or career reset. Whether you’re considering a specialization, contemplating a move, or reassessing your long-term goals, tune in for clarity and perspective for building the career and life you truly want.

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Podcast Transcript

Ryan: Welcome to the Dentist Money Show where we help dentists make smart financial decisions. My name is Ryan, affectionately referred to sometimes, mostly in the past as Sir Ryan. And I’m here with Matt the Mountain, the technical mountain, Matt Mulcock. I just learned today that your middle name is also technical.

Matt Mulcock: Is going to be a joke that no one else understands? We were yapping before we hopped on, but hello. Happy to be here.

Ryan: No, I know. It’s like, it’s okay. Yeah, welcome. Matt is on ⁓ a heater of a streak of podcast recording for today.

Matt Mulcock: We’re calling this a marathon sprint. This is my number three for the day. we’re energy. I’m trying to keep energy up. I’m trying to keep energy up. We did two cents. did Thanksgiving two cents. ⁓ so this is going to come out at well after Thanksgiving, but yeah, Thanksgiving two cents. then, we did, Rabih Jake and I recorded a how to crash proof your portfolio episode. So that was a good one. It was fun.

Ryan: What were your other subjects, by the way? What did you record on today? Tips for how to never lose money in the stock market and only have gains.

Matt Mulcock: Exactly. It’s basically, basically how to guarantee you’ll only get 10 % or more returns every single year and never lose money. And all you have to tax free and passive a hundred percent. And all you have to do is hire Dentist advisors. That’s it. And we only have three spots left. So you better get going. yeah, exactly. Yep. When you actually hear this, it’ll be three spots left in, in five days. And so you better call now. Yeah.

Ryan: Tax-free? Passive? Okay. Cool. And five days, three spots in five days when you hear this, not now, but when you hear this in four weeks call now. So the ⁓ we have to make the announcement that that was sarcasm. do not guarantee said returns. Listen to the guy at the first of the episode at the fast voice that mumbles really low. He still he still does that right?

Matt Mulcock: Call now. Yeah. Yep. He literally takes, takes care of everything. We can literally say whatever we want now. Cause that dude and his name’s John. Thanks, John. So because John says that at the beginning, we can just say whatever we want. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Exactly.

Ryan: It is? We can. You can just like claim whatever. Well, speaking of claims, that actually has nothing to do with today. ⁓

Matt Mulcock: Speaking of segueing into our topic.

Ryan: It has nothing to do with any. We pulled some questions. This is one of our favorite types of episodes to do listener, client, dentist questions. We call it Q and R. Instead of Q and A, the R stands for responses because, why? Why not an A for answer? Why an R for response?

Matt Mulcock: We just, we started to feel like we were being a little bit, ⁓ cocky and being like, yeah, we have all the answers. It’s like, wanted to. Yeah, exactly. We, I don’t even know where this started, but one day we were talking as we do, and we were, ⁓ just like, man, we call these answers, but sometimes we don’t have the answer, but we’ll, we’ll always give you a response. And so we decided to change them to Q and R.

Ryan: Yeah. You have questions, we’ve got answers. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I actually remember it came from some podcasts I used to listen to from these like multiple PhD. They were like ⁓ religion and philosophy scholars and they just nerded out on like the world’s philosophies and religions and they would title their episodes Q &R because being multiple PhDs as you and I totally relate to. Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, you got multiple CFPs and in fact,

Matt Mulcock: Multiple CFPs as well you have here. Over here.

Ryan: Our credentials come sooner in the alphabet. The C and the P, the CFP comes before the PhD. often confused. So I heard that and I was like, well, you know what’s funny is actually all these years of the podcast I’ve been saying that if I were a dentist, I’d be an ortho with two locations. And it’s funny when I meet people who are like, who know that. They’re like, should I be an ortho with two locations? Like maybe.

Matt Mulcock: Yep. Often confused with PhD. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can also call me doctor if you want to. It’s fine. Yeah. I know I was speaking, ⁓ somewhere a couple of like a month or so ago and someone there shout out Dan Nelson from elevation. He was speaking as well. And he mentioned this about you. He was like, right. Yeah. Ortho two locations, you and Ryan.

Ryan: Really? Do you want to know? There was a younger. OK, actually, let’s just start with this question. This wasn’t on my list, but now this just total. Let’s just begin with this question. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know this is great. They’re horrible too, by the way, and they’re all on you. You have to answer all of them. Well, actually really fast before we even do that, how?

Matt Mulcock: Can we say this real quick? My favorite part of these episodes is I have no idea what these questions are. You’ve not shared these with me at all. Perfect. Love this.

Ryan: We’ve been talking about this lately. How can we encourage people to send in their questions? What’s the easiest way right now to send in questions to the podcast? And we’re gonna try to keep making this as easy as possible. Matt, just give them your cell phone number to have them text you direct questions.

Matt Mulcock: Yeah, we’re We’re going to fix this. Yeah, just hit me up at five five five ⁓ no, I think it is. I’m just going to double check this. Yeah. So dentistadvisors.com/podcast but we are working currently on possibly just creating an email where you can just shoot an email over. That would be the goal. ⁓ but if you go to Dentist for now, it’s dentistadvisors.com/podcast

Ryan: On our website. Okay. A straight up email, yeah. ⁓

Matt Mulcock: And then you’ll see a button there that says submit question to podcast.

Ryan: Okay, yeah, that’s great. Also, I would say if you go to the Dentist Advisors Discussion Group on Facebook, free, it’s private group. A lot of great discussions happen in the discussion group, as you would probably guess from the title. Yeah, discussions do happen in that group. You can put questions in there too, and we’re in there every day. So yeah, send us questions, anything you think of. And we love the big, long paragraph, detailed life stories with multiple questions in there. So they’re kind of like case studies, actually.

Matt Mulcock: Yep. Yeah. Some discussions happening. And we will, we’ll try to read every single word without laughing, ⁓ without yapping at ourselves, not at the person with the question. ⁓ it has yet to happen that either Ryan or I have allowed each other to get through a question like that, but we will keep trying.

Ryan: Ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah, there’s always something, there’s always like a mental side quest to go on, like a little something to start. Okay. Well, this is how the first question started. I actually took a phone call the other day. ⁓ invitation here too. ⁓ If you want to talk to dentist advisors about your situation and see if getting the right kind of help and guidance and ⁓ systems in place to help make ⁓ smart financial decisions, avoid mistakes and kind of know where you’re going and have accountability.

Matt Mulcock: Always. that reminds me, Ryan, let’s talk about.

Ryan: Go to our website too, dentistadvisors.com click the book free consultation button. We’ll walk you through kind of a process where we get to know you, you get to know us, and we can see if we’re a good fit for each other. But this is one of those phone calls. It was a younger dentist out of school for a couple years working as an associate and considering going back to ortho school, like residency, and getting that extra training to become an orthodontist. And the question was, it’s actually a great place to start. And think a lot of early career dentists wonder where they should go in terms of like where they should practice, what kind of practice they should be in, should they specialize, should they do whatever. So I’ll start this question to you, Matt. She asked, said, hey, I’m thinking of going from being a GP general dentist to ⁓ going into ortho. big costs involve hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Financing these days is interesting with student loans, as you know, we can get into that and ⁓ also just the nature of what it means to go from GP to becoming an orthodontist as a career. And her question was, is it worth it? Would you recommend? Yeah, that’s actually, yeah, was Missy Elliott who was on the phone. Was that Missy Elliott actually? that’s okay, cool. that’s the one where she sings it backwards.

Matt Mulcock: Is it worth it? Can you work it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shout out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is it worth it? Can you work it? Yeah. That’s the first thing I thought of. So sorry.

Ryan: That part’s getting clipped. ⁓ Like for social media, it’s going out there. So I thought it was a really interesting question. It’s pretty common where people wonder where their careers are headed. I think we all wonder at multiple stages in our lives. So totally fair. Yeah, like what do I wanna do when I grow up? know what mean? We’ll brainstorm that later. How would you begin to ⁓ walk through this question with someone, Matt? Like where does your brain go when you hear a younger career person say, should I?

Matt Mulcock: Yes. Yeah, I’m wondering that now too. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan: You know, take this path, very specific, very expensive, extensive, it’ll take years to get there. And you know, that’ll kind of take my career in a very different direction. Where would you begin talking about this with this person?

Matt Mulcock: ⁓ yeah, I’ve had this question a lot too, with different things, either whether it be ortho or endo or, know, some, type of specialty or residency. ⁓ so I guess the first thing I’ll say is I understand or I assume I do, and I don’t want to assume, but I naturally assume if I’m being honest, that they’re saying, is it worth it in the sense of like finances? Like, am I going to make enough money to make this worth it? I, where I tend to try to take this conversation first is taking a step back. I think asking, I think would probably be the obvious question of, you like ortho? Like, tell me, tell me about your experience doing ortho. What, know, GP to orthos is a, a difference as far as the day to day, the, the financials, the, the KPIs, the things that you’re looking at. So I would want to know first, do you want like, you

Ryan: Yeah.

Matt Mulcock: Actually like ortho. You know, it can’t just be a financial situation or discussion. This is something you’re signing up for, for a career. ⁓ especially the dollars you’re going to put into it. That creates a lot of commitment. So I would want to just know and have a general conversation first of tell me about your desires to be an ortho and what that means for you.

Ryan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I was, ⁓ that’s actually kind of where I started too. I did make the joke. She hadn’t ever listened to the history of the Dentist money show and I was like, why? What’s you kidding me? Like, okay, this conversation is done.

Matt Mulcock: What? ⁓ okay. I’m offended, but we’re going to go ahead and hit end on this call.

Ryan: Yeah, that was actually the first thing I thought I got into a discussion with her about, ⁓ do you know any orthodontists? Have you been able to get in there and see what the practice is like? You and I are not dentists, Matt, might be news to anyone listening. ⁓ Not PhDs, not dentists, CFPs. ⁓ But the world of ortho is…

Matt Mulcock: Shocker. Yep. Tried. Nah, didn’t even try. Nope. Nope.

Ryan: Especially the more successful you become it’s very fast-paced some of our bigger ortho if I’m getting this right Some of our bigger busier ortho offices are seeing like a hundred plus people a day ⁓ Which is crazy, you know, they have like these open bay offices and they’re just like going all over the place Jumping in and out of chairs in bays chairs, you know, whatever you want to call So the first thing I was curious about is like have you been in that environment?

Matt Mulcock: Yep. Yep. Yeah, yeah,

Ryan: Have you ever been in an ortho office? Do you know orthodontist? Have you seen what a typical day is like? You know, instead of seeing, you know, how many people you’re going to see as a GP and doing the work you’re doing, have you seen what it’s like to be a successful orthodontist? Like running, you know, most of the orthos I know like that, very, very successful. Also not taking lunches. Very tired. Yes.

Matt Mulcock: Yeah. And, and, and repetitive, right? By nature. it’d be like, anytime you specialize the, the result of that is repetition, you know, maybe not as bad as like, let’s say endo, but still ortho is going to be far more repetitive than, than the, more options, ⁓ or more of eclectic approach to procedures that a GP would have. Personality. So I’ve actually heard this from some people of like,

Ryan: Mmm, mhm.

Matt Mulcock: I thought I wanted to go specialty insert, whatever the specialty. And then I realized, I don’t want to do that same thing all day. So that’s something to, and it’s one thing to say, but I like what you’re saying is like, have you been around that environment? Do you know what it actually is day to day? Cause it’s one thing to say it. It’s another thing to be living it every day.

Ryan: Okay all day long. Mm-hmm. Yeah, have you seen it? Totally different, man. What about the money side of it? I actually connected her with a couple, again, this is I think one of the benefits of talking to dentist advisors is whether or not you hire us, it could be for various reasons that we do or don’t, but we have a lot of good connections that could be helpful to you. know some people. Do you know who are? I was thinking the other day, think we’ve almost, we’re…

Matt Mulcock: We know people, dude. Do you know who we are? Because we know people, you know?

Ryan: What year will be 20 years for us? Will it be 2027? I think it’s 2027. That’ll be 20 years for us in just the dental world. it’s a long time, man. So like, yeah, there’s…

Matt Mulcock: I thought you were saying 10, 20 years from now. And I was like, Ryan, what are you talking about? It’s like, bro, what are you? That’s when you get your forties. It’s like, man, that’s what it feels like.

Ryan: 2027 is 20 years from now. Yeah. It’s going to feel like that. It’s going to the next two years are going to feel like 20. It goes by in like a week and it feels like 20 years. It’s just a weird timeframe. But anyway, I connected her with a couple of our advisors who are like, they’re really plugged in and connected to the student loan world. So the next question, Matt, was like the financial piece to it. From today’s landscape, what do you think about the money side of it? There’s a lifestyle of being an ortho or a specialist. What’s the money side of the extra probably three or 400 grand?

Matt Mulcock: Yeah.

Ryan: How financing is going to work right now in today’s financing landscape for things like that. How does the how do the finances play out in your mind?

Matt Mulcock: Yeah, I think it’s can be, it’s definitely going to be more complicated, but I think from a, have to speak in generalities. Obviously every situation is different, but if we’re talking about generalities and probability, the probability of making more money as an ortho is higher. Like it just is like on average, or those make more money than in GP. ⁓ now there’s so many caveats to that. have so many successful GPs we work with like

Matt Mulcock: Making a ton of money. So, but again, if you’re just talking financially, think it’s still assuming you’ve checked the first box of like, this is the lifestyle, this is the business I want to run. This is my personality, like this fits my values and what I want. Like this fits my vision. If that’s, if that all fits, then absolutely it’s still very much worth it in general, in general. Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah, I believe that. Yeah. If you looked across our data, ⁓ are we above 700 people across the country or close to it? Yeah. I don’t know what percentage would be ortho. It probably is close to what the percentage of ortho is in the country among all the dentists, I’m sure. orthodontists will typically rank in a lot of our top numbers.

Matt Mulcock: Total relationships, yeah.

Ryan: ⁓ and benchmarks for income and net worth and certainly collections and business value. ⁓ So yeah, financially, that’s what I said too. I’m like, it’s more of lifestyle because I think the money pencils out. I really do. ⁓ But it does come back to lifestyle because it’s like if you really enjoy that type of work environment and you’re gonna be able to handle it, which means like you have to know that you’re gonna be able to really run a successful ortho practice, which just entails being in that kind of environment and lifestyle. So I do think that’s really important. What else, is there anything else you ask people who are getting into this question and like, where should I take my career and is it worth it? Anything else come to mind that you think about?

Matt Mulcock: Yep. I don’t, I mean, I think those are the biggest things. I also think understanding, ⁓ that maybe another one would be practice owner versus associate. think that’s a big, a big deal here of right. If you’re going to go ortho just in this specific case, if we talk about, it worth it financially? I’d want to know, well, is your goal to be a practice owner? If so, what does that look like from like, what is your vision for that?

Matt Mulcock: If it’s to be a career associate, again, nothing wrong with that, but that takes us down a different path at a different discussion. ⁓ but no, think overall, those are the kind of the main discussion points I would. It’s a hard question to answer. Like it’s kind of a, I don’t blame this person by the way, but I’m saying it’s, if you really think about it, it’s a completely unanswerable question. Like I know what they’re getting at, but it’s like, can’t.

Ryan: Mm hmm. Yeah. I know. I know, mm-hmm. Yeah. You’re like 20 years from now, are you gonna be happy with this phone call that I told you yes, go be an ortho? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Matt Mulcock: Yeah, no, I can’t. That’s why we don’t answer. We respond and talk about the trade-offs. But if we’re talking purely in the sense of like, cause I think what she’s probably getting at truly at the end of the day is, it still worth it to add this much more debt from a financial perspective? Is the income upside still there? That’s an easy answer. Generally. Yes. The answer, the answer is yes. The upside is still there over a 20 or 30 year career. For sure.

Ryan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. What does the data say? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. Yeah. this is kind of like a bonus question on that too. I always think about where someone is going to end up practicing. ⁓ not, not everyone is driven by where they live, like location. Some people it’s like, take me wherever the money’s the best, you know, but then some people are really driven by like the environment, the lifestyle, could be the city, the country, like whatever, you know? ⁓ I do. Do you think that plays a big factor or how do you see that ⁓ or how have you seen that influence younger dentist career decisions that we talk to? Do you think they’re making decisions based on like ideal location? I wanna go back to hometown, I wanna be near the coast, I wanna be in the middle of nowhere. Do you see that impacting people’s career decisions now or is it more about like opportunity and money right now?

Matt Mulcock: I mean, I see everything across the board. ⁓ this is whether or not like this, this is kind of branching away from like specific ortho or not. This is just jet dentists in general. I see a combination. think it does take a ton of work on the front end to uncover that for yourself of like what, you actually are prioritizing. One thing I will say, I tell this to dentists, especially young dentists all the time, listen to me, cause I’m not a dentist kid. ⁓ but no, but

Ryan: Yeah.

Matt Mulcock: In our experience, our collective knowledge gathered from

Ryan: Yeah, you’ve met a few dentists, you’ve talked to a few in your life. Yeah.

Matt Mulcock: In the coattails we’re writing of the dentist who actually lived this life. the one thing to be careful of overall would be the, and we’re talking about tactically. So if you’re saying your priority is money, which is there’s nothing wrong with that, by the way, but if you’re saying your priority is when it comes to location, ⁓ is what’s giving me the highest chance of making the best income. I would say, if someone told me that I would say you need to prioritize as you move down this path, optionality and the ability to pull the rip cord. Because if you’re, because especially if the trade off is moving away from family. like, so for example, if a dentist, a young dentist was like, I’m going to prioritize the highest level of income for myself. So I’m going to go to this podunk town in South Dakota. I’m buying this practice. I’m the only dentist in town, but I’m from Boston and I’m going to go buy this practice now. My first purchase. would be like, dude, you better be careful. You better be careful. I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying again, you don’t know how you’re going to feel until you are in month three or month 18, living in that place away from family and friends and making a ton of money that you can’t even like enjoy. And I’m not saying that’ll be, I’m just saying be careful versus someone who’s prioritizing
family being like proximity to family and friends. That’s less of a concern for me.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I totally agree. And both answers are probably true over a whole career. You might get started following one path as a dentist. could just be the opportunity, the money for a period of time and find your way back to something that feels more rooted to who you are later in life. And that happens all the time, too. It’s harder. Have you had many clients? We’re down a rabbit hole of like career decisions right now. Have you had many?

Matt Mulcock: What? We don’t ever do rabbit hole. is like, this is not us.

Ryan: Have you had many clients who pack up and leave to another state and like start over again? I mean, buy or start up a practice, but like literally across the country, state lines, mid-career, like 30s and 40s. Have you had much of that? Yeah.

Matt Mulcock: I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it. ⁓ and I’ll be honest, ⁓ this is totally anecdotal. So don’t do not take this as like data. Exactly. But the ones I’m thinking of right now, not only my own experience, but some from what our advisor team, ⁓ the ones I’m thinking of right now have ended really poorly. Uh-huh. Yeah. And I’m again, I’m thinking of a couple right now at the top of my head. Part of it is my own bias of like,

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, just the stuff you’ve seen. Make your, yeah, make decisions based on what Matt’s telling you right now.

Matt Mulcock: Shooting to negative immediately. But yeah, I’m thinking of a few right now, if it’s off my head that it like disasters. Yeah. So one person in particular moved from New York to LA across the country, just wanted to get all family, all friends in New York, running a killer practice in New York, making a ton of money. And then decided this was a few years ago.

Ryan: Describe poorly, I mean, not in detail for personal details, but like, okay, like what, what, what happened? jeez, yeah. Yeah, big. Mm-hmm. Wow.

Matt Mulcock: Uh, on a whim was just like, know what? Want to go to California, sick in New York. I want to go to the other coast, better weather. I just want to be there. And I was like, okay. Uh, definitely warned them based on just, again, they, they were making a ton of money and had an incredible lifestyle in New York and around friends and family. Just wanted to get back or just wanted to get to a new change of scenery and the better weather. I don’t blame them sunshine state, baby.

Ryan: Around friends and family too. Interesting. Yeah, a change of scenery. Wow. Yeah. No, I don’t either. Yeah.

Matt Mulcock: And, the, ⁓ and there’s some caveats here. They went all in on a massive house and hadn’t established themselves in a career there and it ended really poorly. ⁓ just they started, they went from massive surplus saving, investing, building up all this money to living paycheck to paycheck. so again, there’s other factors there. ⁓ another one in particular, this wasn’t my particular, ⁓ client.

Ryan: Okay. Yeah, yeah. no. Wow.

Matt Mulcock: But another one I’m thinking of from one of our advisors, it’s always California. Another, another one. Yep. It’ll eat you up. Yeah. Yeah. So exactly. But this one, dude, seriously, one of the famous donut shops from California is coming to Utah. Of course. Cause Utah just wants to copy everything with California. Everyone here wants to wishes they lived in California, but can’t afford it.

Ryan: To this place, it’ll just eat your soul, but you’ll have a good time. You won’t even notice is the problem, you know, cause you’re just outside like smiling the whole time, eating like $12 donuts. Which one? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which one? and hates on it simultaneously. Do know that’s one of the biggest jokes in the summertime when everyone floods here of all the people who hate on California and then like our traffic and they’re leaving trash on the beach and it’s crowded and like, you guys hated this place. They’re like taking pictures for Instagram, like Cali life, Cali life. Yeah, sorry. Okay. Yeah.

Matt Mulcock: Hates on it, but also loves it. Of course. Yep. I know. Of course that’s that’s that’s Utah all day. ⁓ and it’s, I’m part of the problem as someone who lives, lives in Utah now and used to live in California. ⁓ so yeah, sidecar donuts. That’s the one, ⁓ that’s coming to Utah. It’s killer. It’s killer. anyway, this other one, same thing back East California transition, complete disaster. That was even worse.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah. Oh, sidecar. Okay, never. I’ve never gone. No. I have to do that. Yeah, interesting. So yeah.

Matt Mulcock: A lot of factors involved, ended up have basically having to go back and they, went back home. So yes, we have seen it, not saying that this all situations are poor, but we have seen a handful that have not gone well.

Ryan: Really? Yeah. Yeah, making that transition. mean, New York to LA, you’re probably about the same in expenses and taxes. ⁓ A lesson out of that is probably to really, really set your expectations accordingly when you’re going to go to a place that’s a lot more expensive. ⁓ Yeah, I think that’s one thing I’m to think of a couple cases, too. And then one of them is going to lead in the next question. An actual segue, if you will. ⁓ One, I.

Matt Mulcock: We’re professionals. We’re professionals.

Ryan: I am thinking of a client who successfully went from the Midwest to West Coast, not California, Oregon. And they did it over a multi-year period. ⁓ their lifestyle includes no kids, or doesn’t include kids, I guess, I don’t know how you would say that, includes no kids. Yeah, well, they’re dual income, very successful dual income, no kids. Yeah, so they are cheating a little bit at life, just starting out.

Matt Mulcock: So they’re cheating. Yeah. ⁓ the dinks, the dinks. Yep. Yep.

Ryan: But practice was, yeah, you’re like, yeah, well, yeah, can, yeah, you can pretend you’re moving to the moon if you have dual income and no kids. Yeah. Like, all right, go to the moon. But they did it really, really slow. The practice was very successful and the non-spouse dentist, her career is, was incredible too. And it took her a while for her company to be able to shift her to another place. But they took a couple of years going there, visiting.

Matt Mulcock: Every single person listening just tuned out, including me. I’m like, I don’t even care. I don’t want to hear this example. Yeah. ⁓ no kids. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Okay, that’s what I was wondering. What do you mean go slow? Just going there like, okay.

Ryan: Yep, they visited a lot, their expectations and also their expectations for housing were very low given their circumstance that they they prioritize some other things. So on another note, watching someone do that and ⁓ they didn’t know what practice they were going to start or buy there. You know, they took their time, they sold the practice, took a little sabbatical, took their time finding a practice ⁓ and it’s going really well, but it was a slow decision. anyway, to go back to the whole point and then this will lead into the next question. That can be tough. Where you decide to practice, where you decide to put your roots down, especially as an owner, can be really hard to change later. I think that’s just the point. It’s not impossible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah, you always have the best ones. Yeah.

Matt Mulcock: Yeah. Can I, can I, can I read a quote? Well, I just copy people. fully admit it. I read the best quotes from other people that are putting a lot of time and energy into thinking, but I read well.

Ryan: You always read the best ones is what I meant to say. What if, like, what if that’s like one of the best things said about you? It’s just like, Matt always reads the best quotes from other people.

Matt Mulcock: He’s such a good reader of quotes from other people. ⁓ anyway, anyway, this is pertinent. ⁓ so I’ve mentioned this before, but if you’re not already following James clears, three, two, one newsletter, it is so good. But I was thinking about this as we were talking about this idea, cause what we’re talking about is risk and like sometimes life, life, like life changing risk. So I’m going to read this. I’m going to read it really well. think.

Ryan: He’s always like so quick. Anyway, what’s the quote? I know, yeah, of course.

Matt Mulcock: And then I want you to tell me if this makes sense for what we’re talking about. So this is from his recent newsletter. He says the best types of risk to take are ones that one, the worst outcome is manageable and two, the best outcome is life-changing. So think asking someone on a date or investing an amount of money you can afford to lose into a business with high upside. Or I’ll add this is me now, ⁓ moving across the country.

Ryan: Okay. Okay. Okay. Ooooo

Matt Mulcock: Or like if you’re factoring in this into like what we’re talking about now, what’s the upside of that, of that risk you’re taking. And then the last part of this quote is look for opportunities where it won’t kill you if it goes poorly, but you’d be blown away if it goes well.

Ryan: Mm-hmm. Ooh, man, okay, hold on. It won’t kill you if it goes poorly, but you’d be blown away if it goes well.

Matt Mulcock: So I that applies to what we’re talking about. Like if you’re, if you’re, if you’re prepared to move across the country to start a business or practice with no family, no friends around, I don’t know if that fits this criteria of like, is like, if it goes poorly, I guess just be visualizing if it goes poorly, how will it, well, how would it turn out? Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah, that’s. How will I manage this? Because it’s got to be manageable. Yeah. And if it sets you back decades in your financial progress or in any other category, like really sets you back. Yeah, it’s just something to consider. That’s really cool. How do you do it? How do you think of these quotes, though? I mean, it is a skill. You know, I read quotes and I don’t recall them in dentists moving across the country conversations. You know what mean?

Matt Mulcock: Well, yeah, I just. I just, I just throw things at a dartboard and hope something stick. No, I don’t know. I just, I’m constantly trying to read from other people who are way smarter than me and apply it to things in my life or to help or to help clients or people listening or whatever. And so, ⁓ I appreciate that though. I try my best. The, the other thing I was thinking about here that applies to this, I think is I heard an interview a while ago with Michael Phelps, ⁓ the most decorated gold medalist of all time. ⁓

Ryan: It’s stock. Yeah. Yeah, it’s cool. Yeah, you’re good.

Matt Mulcock: He talked a lot about, again, that I think applies to this. He, him and his coach had like a, ⁓ kind of a unique way of looking at preparing for races and just his training and everything is he’s like, you know, so many people think about positive, ⁓ like, ⁓ what am I trying to say? Like thinking about, ⁓ like visualization, visualization guys, this is my third podcast today. So he said, comes, here comes the slurring and I’m drooling.

Ryan: Here comes the slurring.

Matt Mulcock: But he, no, he talks about how they, most people conventionally will think about positive visualization. So you’re going to make a big move in your life. you, you tend to be want to think of a positive, like, okay, what could go right? His whole, what he takes as like one of his biggest advantages throughout his career was him and his coach would often talk about and think about negative visualization. like, what is going to go wrong in this race and actually visualize it.

Matt Mulcock: Right. And be like, okay, it’s going wrong. I’m actually thinking about this. ⁓ like, like, how am going to prepare? How am I going to react to this? I think this could serve dentists very, very well in these situations. Don’t just think about what’s going to go right. Cause you’re excited and emotional and want to have it happen. Think about what could go wrong actually visualize it going wrong. And if it does, like I’m talking disaster wrong. Like he, you know, he’d say like,

Ryan: Interesting. yeah. Mm-hmm. And what you can do. Yeah. Hmm.

Matt Mulcock: My, would visualize my goggles coming off during your race. What am I going to do? It’s like same. I would be a disaster for a gold medalist, like trying to break a world record. So in this situation, it’s like, what could go wrong? Visualize that and then think about, and maybe write out the steps. Here’s what I would do. And then apply it to this quote of, it going to kill me if it goes poorly, if that actually happens, or is it, and is it worth the upside of it going? Right.

Ryan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Hmm Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s awesome. It’s good to know that my probably ⁓ undiagnosed anxiety disorder is what Michael Phelps does to ⁓ succeed in life. Just envision all of the bad stuff that will ever happen simultaneously at all times. I’m so good at that. I just ruminate on worst case scenarios all day. So I’m prepared, Am I a gold medalist? I’m something.

Matt Mulcock: Yep. See, there you go. He has 21 medals and we. You’re like, am I Michael Phelps? Am I the Michael Phelps of podcasting? Maybe.

Ryan: Okay, so second story, next question, 30 minutes into this thing. ⁓ Similar thing, ⁓ dentist, she operated a ⁓ really great practice in the South. They own some properties, husbands in the medical field, ended up moving to a different part of the country, many states away ⁓ for some lifestyle change, just a different kind of thing. And similar experience, I would say that more of these outcomes probably have more struggles in them and in common. was tough. The practice getting started in the new state was harder. His job actually went better. So guess there’s some trade-offs. It was a little bit harder. Here’s the second question. This is actually something we’ve been talking about internally with the advisor team and how we benchmark data and measure progress in some ways. Their question now at this phase in life, they’re early 40s, late 30s, early 40s.

⁓ He is getting to the point where he’s starting to say, you know what, like what is all this for? It’s like an existential for. They have a couple little kids. What is all this for? He’s like, you know, I don’t work that much and the money I make pays our bills. ⁓ If we, you know, made these steps X, Y, and Z in our financial situation, I think we could get her to exit the practice. She could, you know, temporary, like you work, you know, as a, as an associate a day or two a week or where, where needed.

Matt Mulcock: Been there, been there, brother.

Ryan: And then we could spend these younger years with the kids, we could travel, we could do all these things. A few questions in here. One of their first questions was, what’s the number we need to be at to make this possible? Meaning like, what is our net worth? What does it need to be in order to make this possible? That’s one question. And I kind of want to go there for a second because for a long time we’ve talked about this concept called total term, and it’s got a certain number and a certain target that’s like the ultimate conservative number to get to. But that’s got some, caveats, it’s kind of like the withdrawal rate rule, you know, is it 4 %? Is it 3? Is it 5? ⁓ And then getting to that point, their other part of their question is, you know, it’s things like, well, do we have to pay off all of our debt before we do this? Like, do we have to be debt free to get there? And because if we do that, our expenses get lower, but then all so does all the cash that we’re holding in investment accounts that are supposed to grow that we’re going to need to draw from.

Matt Mulcock: Yep. Yep.

Ryan: And also this question, Matt, of ⁓ really stepping back from regular work and practice ownership at a young age. I they’re not 50s, they’re not 60s, they’re like late 30s and early 40s. So let’s start with first the measure of when someone is, let’s say, work optional, financially independent, you can call it retired, whatever. How would you respond to this question in terms of what’s the number they need to hit? And you can maybe frame it in what we’ve always said versus what we talk about kind of lately, you know, does it have to be a 30 total term, that conservative? Does it have to be over the top? Can you die with zero? Which by the way, that book is making the rounds somewhere on TikTok because everyone’s asking about it it’s not a new book either. So just that came in that subject too. So let’s start there. What’s the, yeah, I can’t wait. So what’s the measure? How are we responding to people, let’s say at this age?

Matt Mulcock: It is everywhere. Yeah, no, it’s it’s everywhere. Teaser, we’re gonna do a show on that one,

Ryan: Midlife, mid-career, 40, about what’s the number if they wanted to be done that early? How are you responding to that?

Matt Mulcock: Well, there’s first of all, so many follow up questions that I’d have. okay. So is, okay. Number one, did you say he’s going to keep working?

Ryan: Yeah, okay. I know them, so ask me. Yes, yes, he’s gonna keep working His income on not that much work. We’re talking maybe seven days a month of work is ⁓ Is covering their expenses which by the way their expenses also are higher than average The average that we met measured it’s not quite double but it’s pushing double average spending from what we measure

Matt Mulcock: And his income is enough to cover their baseline needs. Well. Okay. going to introduce me to this guy. want this guy’s job. ⁓ Holy cow. Okay. So his

Ryan: It’s just like medical school and then like a decade of experience on top of it and then the right opportunities at the right time.

Matt Mulcock: Yeah. No, that’s I got it. I just was thinking of, stepbrothers when he’s like, what do do? Like I’m going into the family business. He’s like, your dad’s a doctor. I was like, what are you talking about? ⁓ anyway, so you’re saying, you’re saying, you’re saying that we broke her. We broke him. We broke Ryan.

Ryan: Yeah, you can do that next week.

Matt Mulcock: I don’t know why my brain goes to these random things. ⁓ dude. I grew up often not. grew up on movie lines. That’s like how I was raised. ⁓ so yeah, eighties, nineties for sure. ⁓ so, okay. So his income working just seven days a week covers their needs. They’re not saving any money beyond that.

Ryan: ⁓ gosh, that’s so funny. so funny. And see, this is the, you pulled the best quotes. They’re not always from like inspirational authors and speakers, dude. Sometimes it’s Will Ferrell and- Yeah, yeah, that’s like the 90s, 80s and 90s.

Matt Mulcock: But they are, it covers, they’re not going to have to like go into, so they’re not going to be like using the assets they’ve put away at this point, or they might.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, technically on paper, no. The thing that scares me the most is you’re 40. To say, you know, okay, yeah, keep going, keep going. Okay, yeah, keep going.

Matt Mulcock: Well, so yeah, that was my next question is, so there’s a huge difference in saying my kids are young. ⁓ I want to be dedicating some time to them while I, believe me, I’m going through this existential crisis myself of like, ⁓ I only have so many years where my kids actually want to hang out with me. So, so I’m going to slow down. Like, so for her, I’m going to step away from practice for now, focus on the kids.

Matt Mulcock: He’s going to work just casually, but still make enough money, but I’m going to go back to work. There’s a huge difference in Sam going back to work versus what do I need to never work again? So that would be a ⁓ real point of clarification.

Ryan: Mm-hmm. And then, uh huh, yep. Yeah, yeah. the answer in their situation is they’re young, relative to actual fully permanently retired people, decades older. So I don’t think you can know that answer when you’re 40 and you have little kids. I don’t think you can know the answer of what your 55 and 60 and 65 year old brain will be thinking about work and money and career and time, energy.

Matt Mulcock: So what’s the answer? But what if they said their attention is.

Ryan: For him to continue working. let’s answer this question on the basis that he’s gonna continue doing what he’s doing. He’s gonna keep doing what he’s doing, earning enough, paying for their baseline expenses. And my first argument right off the bat was, well, what do you think’s gonna happen to your spending when the two of you are no longer working like you’re working and you have all this free time to do the travel? Yeah, I mean, your current.

Matt Mulcock: Okay. Paying for their normal life. Ending goes up.

Ryan: Your spending is gonna go up, which is in line with what all the retirement spending happens in all the studies and data. Yes, yeah.

Matt Mulcock: Well, age here is a big factor too. So like you’re more likely to have spending increase when you’re young and like fire, you know, financial dependent versus 70. Yeah. Huge difference.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah. 70. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, big difference. So the assumption is he’ll keep working covering their current baseline spending. But to me, that’s worrisome because spending is not gonna stay baseline when all of a sudden both parents are home all day long with the kids or 24 days a month with the kids with no work. You’re gonna spend more money.

Matt Mulcock: Yep. But as in her, is her intention sabbatical or is her intention like, I would like to know the number for me never to go back to work.

Ryan: Yeah, here’s what’s interesting. ⁓ This is why you’re like, being a financial advisor, I’m highly unqualified for some things, well, a lot of things, but she doesn’t want to sell the practice and be done. And he wants her to sell the practice and be done.

Matt Mulcock: And those things, everything. she wants to staff it, keep it?

Ryan: Doesn’t even want to leave it actually. then there’s a whole other set of there’s an entire, no, not like this. Yeah, not by exiting the practice and not by having an associate run it or a partner run it. So these are now we’re into the area where that we have a couple of partnership, very common with different like career and life goals and what to do. I know.

Matt Mulcock: She doesn’t, she doesn’t want to do this. You you’re dropping nuclear bombs of quite, this isn’t even like a, what’s the difference between a Roth and a traditional like.

Ryan: I know. So keep assuming we’re going to assume he’s going to keep working to cover baseline expenses. And let’s assume she sells her practice and she goes back to work one day in 10 to 15 years. Let’s just assume that because I think that’s what’s most likely having teenagers myself, kids in college myself. You do get a lot of your time and energy back when kids get older and they leave and they’re busy. And you know, and then you’re like, and I’ve you’ve probably heard this a lot from clients when kids get older and leave the house. ⁓

Matt Mulcock: Yeah.

Ryan: They suddenly have like more career energy too. They’re like, no, of course I’m gonna do this. So let’s just assume he’s gonna cover expenses. She’s gonna go back to work as a dentist later at some point, but exit fully. Yep, and she’s gonna exit fully right now. How are you talking to them about what multiple they’re gonna need? And actually, as I’m thinking about this, this is the second couple that wants to do this that I’ve talked to in the last two weeks, clients of mine, that wanna basically stop working in their 30s and come back in their 50s.

Matt Mulcock: Yep. Yep. and sell the practice. Wow. Wow. Yeah.

Ryan: So how are you thinking about this multiple? How are you thinking about, should they clear out all their debt too, which will drain their accounts but also lower their monthly expenses to be much more manageable? How are you thinking about those things?

Matt Mulcock: Yeah, so for me, this is this is a there’s a lot here.

Ryan: This is like an AP test where it’s like pages of a situation and then you just have to like answer it as one question on a test. It’s giant. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just multiple choice. Yeah.

Matt Mulcock: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ my answer is C. my answer is D all of the above. ⁓ okay. So I would, I personally, so I guess we’ll give context. You mentioned it earlier context of like this multiple we’re talking about. We often talk about retirement readiness from a math perspective as a multiple of your spending. So to keep it really simple, if you have 25 to 30.

Ryan: Yeah. Is it?

Matt Mulcock: Times your, your spending, your annual spending in usable net worth outside of your home. We would consider you financially independent at that point, just as a general back of the napkin. I personally, if this is my client, I’m not really looking, looking too much at the multiple in this situation. The reason being from my perspective is

Ryan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Yep.

Matt Mulcock: He has income that’s covering their everyday needs. Now, if it goes, you’re right. If like spending starts to go up, that’s a different discussion. And if she’s planning and going back to work, the way I would look at this is number one, do we have enough of a cushion? So like you got to have some cushion liquidity cushion. I would want to see a minimum. I guess if we’re talking multiple, what I’d want to see is a minimum of three to five years worth of spending liquidity that could be invested brokerage account I’d probably say five years I’d want to see five years at least five years at least of annual spending liquid I’d want to see that minimum

Ryan: Yeah, like liquidity, okay. Like the stress number. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So that kind of answers the second part of that question. You would rather their expense numbers stay a little higher and keep liquid, even if it means keeping some debts around and just servicing those debts.

Matt Mulcock: Yeah. And I’d want to run some calculations here, So I want to look at the situation if they had let’s say ten years worth of liquidity Right, then that’s it and depending on their debt load. I Would maybe look at that and say let’s run some scenarios of paying down some debt. Maybe that gives up a year or two of liquidity, but they’re still at seven or eight. Now I’m in those expenses and makes it lowers their stress. That’s a different discussion than let’s say they have three years of liquidity. And they’re like, we use all that liquidity to get it down to like six months worth that our debt’s gone? I would have a, I’d be hesitant about that. So a lot of it’s there where they’re already sitting from that perspective.

Ryan: Okay, yeah, and lowers expenses by a certain amount. So questions here to bring up are what’s the amount of liquidity we’re going to be sitting on in terms of how many years of your annual expenses do we have liquid? Another question is going to be, what’s your expectation around work? How much money are you going to be earning? Another question, or even a little bit of a red flag is like expecting spending to stay the same when you’re still young, you have young kids and now you’re going to be home, not working and traveling there’s no way expenses are staying where they’re at. There’s just, there’s no way they’re gonna go up. So that’s good. And you gave the benchmark of what I think is good 25 to 30 times your annual spending in usable net worth outside of your house as the number of like, you’re kind of done forever with work if you have that number, which I love this. All right, I’m gonna throw another curve ball at you. The other couple. It’s really interesting how people are thinking about this these days. The other couple is just say same scenario, they’re same age. ⁓ They wanna do the same thing, basically go on sabbatical for like 12 to 15 years until their mid 50s when the kids are grown and gone, except they’re not gonna work during this time, hardly at all. They’re not gonna work enough to cover their expenses, maybe a little bit, because they’re professionals, they’ll keep up their licensing, they’ll maybe do a day or something here or there, but it’s not gonna cover their expenses. They will be draining their assets from let’s say mid 30s to 50. Let’s say from 35 to 50, they’re gonna do the same thing, but they’re gonna drain down their assets with the expectation. Very minimal work, but at 50, we’ll go back all in at work and rebuild our network from 50 into our 60s to be able to retire. Like immediately, what does that feel like? Scary, huh?

Matt Mulcock: That’s tricky. It’s tricky. ⁓ I, I respect it. If you’re doing it for your, ⁓ if you’re doing it, yeah, your values and what you’ve designed for your life. Like I totally respect it. but yeah, it gets tricky on a, on a, on a spreadsheet for that situation. I would be looking more at a multiple of like, if they’re, you said late, late thirties, early forties, they want to go till they’re 50 and then their intentions to go back to work. I mean,

Ryan: Yeah, that’s their value. Yeah, that’s their life. Yep. But really spend down their stuff in the meantime.

Matt Mulcock: I’d want it. I’d want to see probably at least a 20. I’d want to see at least a 20 multiple. mean, I’m just making that up right now. I’d have to really run like scenarios, but I would say if I’m just telling someone on the street, I’d want to see somewhere in the high teens to like low twenties of usable net worth. And then we need to be really, really, ⁓ locked in on regular reviews of make cause cause part.

Ryan: Yes, tracking.

Matt Mulcock: Tracking, cause part of this too, we, can we get nerdy for a second? ⁓ if we’re talking, we’re not PhDs, but in the CFP world, there’s a lot of this comes down to just pure luck of, of rough timing. Right? So there’s what’s called sequence of returns risk. And, and all of this comes down to, we’ll use right now as an example. let’s, let’s say, well, let’s rewind three years ago. Let’s say your client was.

Ryan: Please let’s go talk nerdy to me.

Matt Mulcock: Making this choice three years ago, like literally almost to the day. And we just knew or that we fast forward to today. So over this three year period, we’ve had double digit returns in the global market, three years in a row. We’re doing annual reviews of clients right now that are seeing multiple six figures up to seven figure returns of gains in the last three years. So in that situation, if I, if you knew with, which we don’t, but if we knew that your client

Ryan: Mm-hmm. Yeah of gain here. Yeah.

Matt Mulcock: Was doing this at the beginning of a three year run we’ve had, I’d be like, I’m feeling pretty freaking good. That’s going to set the stage for the next 10 years plus if you have a run like we’ve had. But if you flip that and say, well, we have a, you know, lost decade situation on our hands or just a bad run of flatline markets for a bit, which is very possible. And you just happen to be walking away like

Ryan: Mm hmm. Yeah. Totally. Yep.

Matt Mulcock: I guess all I’m saying is you better be max level prepared to adjust, to adjust your life when things like that happen, when you’re solely relying on your assets like that.

Ryan: Yeah, it’s like, ⁓ know, when you’re when you’re investing horizon is decades. That’s one thing. But when it’s crazy how short a decade is in the stock market compared to everything else in life, a decade is a million years. Yeah, the risk and also the risk in that scenario is you shorten that back end period of when you need to re accumulate all of your wealth before you are permanently retired. That’s another shortened period of time and another risk that like

Matt Mulcock: Yeah, yeah.

Ryan: What if you’re injured? What if you can’t go back to dentistry? What if, what if, what if? ⁓ It’s a scary thing, then, know, fast forward to die with zero and then what’s it for anyway? And like, what are we pushing all this for anyway? Here, I’ll ask you that, yeah, go ahead.

Matt Mulcock: Yeah. Which I’m all for that, but I guess in this situation, especially the second one, the second scenario you highlighted, and maybe they’ve done this work. have no idea, but if this is my client or talking to Dentist in general, would say, is there a way we can kind of like step into this? Like does I personally, again, if we’re talking about that quote we mentioned earlier, that feels like a pretty big risk to take that, doesn’t have the upside potential, like potential I’m all about in these situations, how do we maximize your options and as best as possible, try to like, like actually experience the outcome we want. And the beauty of this is a lot of times the dentist is you can do that. So take a month off work and go live a life and literally be like, I’m waking up for the next month with nothing to do. Now you’re going to prepare your practice for that. Obviously there’s some risk there, but that’s far less risky than saying, you know what? This just feels good. saw it on Tik TOK and I’m just going to go do this and I’m going to sell my stuff and just go all in. Like keep your options open and just try to maybe step into it when it’s a life-changing decision like that.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, that was a lot of my response for the second scenario was like, you know, it’s supposed to begin in a couple of years from now. And I mean, just to be, they’re smart people. They’re ahead of the game. you know, they’re just, they’ve done so well so far. Yeah, they’ve done so well. That was my thing. It was like, well, what if we step into this from the standpoint of like it, and he in the practice is alone. ⁓ it’s like, what if we stepped into this with an associate or a partner?

Matt Mulcock: I’m sure. Every dentist out there is smarter than us. Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan: Or we stepped into this, like you said, a bigger time off, or you only do these big cases and then someone else is doing all this other little stuff and then you still had something to hold onto, something to come back to. You never know how that’s gonna feel. And also, you know what’s really interesting? I thought about this. In both of these scenarios, ⁓ these life questions that people think about, it gives them a goal and something to engage on. And then what ends up happening is they become more involved, they track their stuff, they’re more meticulous, they save better. They put way more emphasis on liquidity than like, I’m gonna go buy these businesses and this real estate and these illiquid assets. And what happens a lot of times, and they double down their focus in their practices, they get help, they get consulting, they really look at the numbers, they really look at their options. And what’s interesting is, and then what’s, well, what are you gonna say? Yeah, and then what? What? Yeah, it ends up turning out that they’re like, wait, actually, this isn’t that bad. All it took was a little,

Matt Mulcock: And then, yep. I love what they do and they don’t want to leave.

Ryan: Refocus on some different things, reprioritize some stuff like liquidity and savings and not spreading myself thin across like 10 asset classes on my balance sheet. And then that’s what happened.

Matt Mulcock: The word I heard you say too is engaged. They got engaged in the process. I, yeah, I think what you’re alluding to is I think a lot of things could be solved or clarified with just by asking like, am I just doing this because I’m bored? Like, I think just, and I’m not saying that is the answer. I’m not presuming that, but I think taking time to answer that question. And there’s a lot of different ways that are less risky to satisfy boredom. ⁓

Ryan: Yeah, yes.

Matt Mulcock: Like I, don’t know. I just have a hard time thinking that a type a hardcore, super successful dentist is going to hang it up at 40 and be like, yeah, I’m not doing anything for 10 years. Like I’m going to travel for 10 years. Like really you’re going to, mean, maybe you will. And people out there might be like, no, you’re an idiot, but I, I think that’s going to be six. I think how that ends is you’re six to nine months in, and now you’re, now you’re double bored and now you’re bored of traveling.

Ryan: Hangs it up. Yeah, I don’t think so either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree agree. So engage a practice consultant, engage a fiduciary financial advisor, engage some mentor that’s going to help you. And it’s interesting how the basics of a good financial plan is really what helps these people in these scenarios the most. It’s high amounts of organization. It’s good reporting and data. It’s having a third party to be accountable to and brainstorm and talk through things with and it’s liquidity. It’s not spreading all of your money to like every crazy investment you’ve heard from your buddies and the internet and whatever sounds like, you know, sexy and sophisticated. It’s like basics of stuff, practice data, profitability, know, efficiency, teams, process systems, liquidity, savings. And yeah, what you said is exactly, we see this all the time. People get re-engaged with how great it is and then they no longer need to leave it in the same way. A lot of times they still make adjustments. I actually have a client sold to a DSO. Biggest goal was a, it was a multi-year hiatus. And I think they called it at about month eight. They did a lot. They did so, so much and it was really cool, but he’s ready to go back to work actually. So yeah, no, we don’t know. Yeah. Everyone’s journey is their own. Yeah.

Matt Mulcock: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I’ve seen this many, many times. And again, I’m not, I’m not saying that that works. Everyone’s different, but I just have a hard time thinking that a 40 year old successful anything, but in this case, dentist is going to know what they want. mean, I think inherently none of us know what we want a year from now anyway, like we all think we do, but like, and then, you’re going to sit here and make this massive life decision and like,

Ryan: I know, I agree. I agree with that. Did

Matt Mulcock: Make it really difficult to, maybe not, maybe Dentist is out there listening and being like, you know, if, well, no, I’m just saying like, they might say, I’m going to sell, if I sell my practice and make millions of dollars at 40 and step away and I’m a year in and I want to go back, I’ll go back, which is true. That’s the beauty of dentistry. Yeah.

Ryan: If someone will, yeah. Yeah, which is true. It is. Yeah. The longevity of that career. I totally agree. I think it sheds a light on the importance of having the right coaches, advisors, mentors around you. And it just be really engaged with your numbers and ⁓ how pushing on the basics of everything can really make the big difference out of all these giant questions. The basics are really the foundation of like figuring it out and solving the problems, I think.

Matt Mulcock: Well, and it’s probably, it’s probably cliche Ryan, but like, uh, I think I from a, that things are cliche for a reason. It’s because of the most critical like questions to ask, but like, yeah, like, um, reconnecting with your purpose and like truly diving into like, why am I doing that? Where is this coming from? Where is this coming from? And putting the work into that type of question, I think would be well worth it too, before you make a huge life changing decision.

Ryan: Mm hmm. Yeah. Worth repeating. Mm-hmm. Totally agree. Totally agree. Well, an hour in, we got to two questions. Well, it was like 20 questions among two scenarios. Or actually like five sub-scenarios, you know? So, whatever. You’re dead. You’ve had way too much talking on a microphone today.

Matt Mulcock: I still think we hit more than that though. Yeah. Yeah, just a couple of side quests, couple of quotes. Yeah. I think I’ve reached my max.

Ryan: So good. Matt, do you have any invitations for the audience? This episode probably comes out in like December or even January of 2026. I don’t even know. What are your invitations coming up for the folks out there listening? There might be one.

Matt Mulcock: You know, I think for this one, if you’re out there listening and you connected to these stories or you’re connecting to man, if you’re, if you’re out there wondering, like, I don’t know what I’m doing with my money. We hear a lot, like where my money’s even going. We hear a lot of I’m making money, but I don’t know what to do with it. Uh, if, know, I’m stressed about having a plan and just any of these things. Um, if that’s you, you’re thinking about it. Uh, you should call us. We talked to hundreds of dentists all over the country every single week. And these are the types of things we talk to and help dentists with. So if you’re wondering how we can help you, you can go to dentistsadvisors.com, bookie free consultation. now have tax and accounting as part of our services. So we would, we are truly as comprehensive as it gets as, as advisors, we would love to talk to you.

Ryan: Yeah, and it’ll probably be me or Matt, actually. So it’ll probably be me or you who answers the phone. It’s likely. And shout out to Lauren because it actually is like a third of it, Lauren. Yeah, okay, well thanks, Matt. Thanks for all of you for tuning in. Again, if you have questions, dentistadvisors.com/podcast to submit a question. Yeah, so thank you, thank you. Matt, happy Turkey Day.

Matt Mulcock: It probably, what? Yeah, you might. If you’re, if you’re, if you’re lucky, you’ll get Ryan. If you’re extra lucky, you’ll get Lauren. And then it might be me. If you want to submit a question, yep. Yes. Go birds, baby.

Ryan: Go birds on turkey, but turkey birds anyway. Thanks everyone, talk to you next time, bye bye.

Keywords: dentistry, financial planning, career decisions, orthodontics, lifestyle choices, financial independence, sabbaticals, dentist questions, practice management, general dentistry

Practice Management, Work Life Balance