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What Dentists Want to Know — Listener Q&A #3 – Episode 120

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What’s on the minds of one Pedo and two GPs? Debt repayment, retirement plan consolidation, and equipment budgeting. And in this episode of Dentist Money™, Reese & Ryan address each of these listeners’ questions by reacting to a well-known blogger’s advice about debt, explaining the right way to fund new retirement accounts, and describing how equipment should be viewed from an investment perspective.

Podcast Transcript:

Reese Harper: Hey, everybody, Reese Harper here, and thanks for listening to the Dentist Money Show. Today, we’re going to answer some more listener questions. We’ve had a lot of new questions come in since the last time we did this, and hopefully, you’re finding value in hearing what’s on the minds of other dentists. One question came in for a younger dentist who read a blog post about debt elimination and wanted to get our perspective on saving versus paying down debt. Another dentist had a question about consolidating old retirement plans and the consequences of doing that.

Reese Harper: Finally, we’re going to respond to a listener who had a question about setting the right budget for equipment purchases, so a good variety of topics to cover on this one. As I mentioned before, our new website’s up and running, so go to, and you’ll find a bunch of great educational resources. We have an education library with podcasts, articles, and videos on a variety of financial topics for dentists, so check that out. While you’re on the website, you can also book a free consultation with one of our advisors. We’ll talk to you about your situation and show you how to take control of your future so you can start living in the moment right now.

Reese Harper: If it’s easier for you, you can also give us a call at 833-DDS-PLAN. I also wanted to let you know about a new and easy way for you to submit your financial questions to the Dentist Money Show. Just go to, or if you’re at, you can just go to our Podcast tab and click the button that says Submit Question to Podcast. You’ll fill out a question form and we’ll do our best to answer your question on an upcoming episode. Lastly, I also wanted to let you know that you can submit your questions directly to us via text message at 833-DDS-PLAN. Thanks again for listening, and enjoy the show.

Speaker: Consult an advisor or conduct your own due diligence when making financial decisions. General principles discussed during this program do not constitute personal advice. This program is furnished by Dentist Advisors, a registered investment advisor. This is Dentist Money. Now here’s your host, Reese Harper.

Reese Harper: Welcome to the Dentist Money Show, where we help dentists make smart financial decisions. I’m your host, Reese Harper. Here’s my trusty old co-host, Sir Ryan Isaac.

Ryan Isaac: Good morning.

Reese Harper: Good morning, sir. Appreciate you coming in with a tall glass of water in hand.

Ryan Isaac: That’s what they called me in high school, Tall Glass of Water.

Reese Harper: They did. I remember everyone talking about that. The rumors are still on the street.

Ryan Isaac: The rumors went from my state to your state?

Reese Harper: Yup.

Ryan Isaac: About my high school nickname?

Reese Harper: Across the country. The Ides of March are here. It’s March Madness. It’s almost St. Patty’s Day. You guys all filled out the ESPN bracket for the office.

Ryan Isaac: Are we ESPN?

Reese Harper: Yeah, and I filled out the CBS Sports bracket-

Ryan Isaac: Second year in a row.

Reese Harper: … because I keep getting automatic emails coming from CBS Sports saying, “Your bracket’s ready to be filled out,” from Dentist Advisors.

Ryan Isaac: Who does CBS Sports, man?

Reese Harper: “The team is waiting for you.” Last night I log in to check how I did, right, and I mean, all of our employees are listed there, and all their scores are listed there, and I was at number one. I was like, “Dude, I dominated this,” and then it was like, everyone below me, though, had zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, and I realized-

Ryan Isaac: I’m in the wrong group.

Reese Harper: … I think I might be filling out the wrong bracket.

Ryan Isaac: For the second year in a row.

Reese Harper: For the second year in a row, so shout out to CBS Sports for their crafty marketing technique-

Ryan Isaac: They got you.

Reese Harper: … because the founder of the company who’s behind the bracket contest-

Ryan Isaac: And sponsoring the prize.

Reese Harper: … and sponsoring the prize is filling out the wrong bracket-

Ryan Isaac: Every year.

Reese Harper: … because they do such a great job at motivating me to do it.

Ryan Isaac: Every year.

Reese Harper: My own team can’t get me to fill out the correct bracket, and they’re calling me every day, so note to the dentists out there nationally, here, this is a message to take home. If you have a good email campaign, I’m pretty sure you’ll increase your new patient flow-

Ryan Isaac: Someone will come in.

Reese Harper: … and have higher case acceptance.

Ryan Isaac: Someone will come in. Just send an email like, “It’s time to come back in,” even though it’s not time.

Reese Harper: “You’ve missed your appointment. It’s time.” Someone will wander in.

Ryan Isaac: “Get some work done.”

Reese Harper: “That full mouth restoration that you agreed to is still sitting here waiting for you, and we’ve got all your lab work completed and everything’s ready to be … ”

Ryan Isaac: Send that out to 1,000 people and see what happens.

Reese Harper: Yeah, and you’re going to get a huge spike in production.

Ryan Isaac: Let’s jump into today, because it has nothing to do with March Madness, but it’s cool.

Reese Harper: Yeah.

Ryan Isaac: All right? I guess, I don’t know, maybe it kind of-

Reese Harper: It does have something to do.

Ryan Isaac: … has something to do with kind of madness. Today is a Q&A episode. We had a spike in our questions.

Reese Harper: Yeah, we did. It’s because of the new button we put on our website.

Ryan Isaac: Again, marketing. Web marketing. We have a new website,

Reese Harper: You know, we couldn’t get as many people to email the questions in, but you put a button on a website-

Ryan Isaac: People are like, “I’ll click that.”

Reese Harper: … and people love buttons.

Ryan Isaac: “I’ll submit questions.” Like, lengthy questions.

Reese Harper: Yeah, they’re coming in hot.

Ryan Isaac: Yeah, they’re coming in hot.

Reese Harper: We’re proud of you. Thank you, loyal crew, and we want more questions to come in.

Ryan Isaac: So,, if you click on the Podcast tab … Is that right, Justin? Just on the Podcast tab, it’ll take you to the Podcast page, and then right on the front, the header on the front is Submit a Question.

Reese Harper: Yeah.

Ryan Isaac: It’s anonymous, and we’ll do our best to answer it in a timely manner.

Reese Harper: Yup.

Ryan Isaac: Like a voicemail. Okay, question number one. This comes from a Pete O. in Philadelphia.

Reese Harper: Okay.

Ryan Isaac: The city of brotherly love. Is that true?

Reese Harper: Yes.

Ryan Isaac: We’re headed there for a podcast conference, aren’t we?

Reese Harper: Yeah, actually.

Ryan Isaac: In July.

Reese Harper: July, cool.

Ryan Isaac: Excited about that. Maybe we’ll see this person in person. It would be really cool. This says, and this is a little bit longer, and I have to paraphrase a couple things to take out some specifics, but it says, “Reese, I’ve been listening for almost nine months trying to figure out how to manage my financial goals after dental school.” Oh, so this person is, yeah, this person is just about to graduate. “Your podcasts have been a great help. I’m really sad I won’t be able to make it to a seminar that you’re going to speak at pretty soon.” Sounds like he was looking forward to it, but he says, “Okay, I’ve been reading up on a … ” I’m going to leave the name out, but it’s a famous financial blog. “Trying to decipher the many opinions on managing finances. I’ve heard you talk about student debt so many times now. I’m sure you’re getting sick of these questions.”

Ryan Isaac: We’re not. It’s totally great. “But I came across this post on this particular blog and wanted to know your specific opinion.” He gives the blog. We’ll go into the blog post it was about. It was about paying off debt and student loans, as a dentist or a physician. He says, “I will be in a similar situation with around $400,000 in debt when I graduate, and I was looking to move across the country back to my home state, where me and my wife are from, but after reading this article, I’m kind of rethinking that now. I’ll go into why that is. My initial game plan was what you had talked about, which is saving capital in order to get ownership sooner, and then pay off the loans and trying to save for retirement during all of that, but after reading this blog post, and the blog post is that you should not start to invest at all while you still have student loans, seems to make some sense, especially where your interest rates are close to, you know, 7% or higher. How can you justify that? So, the question is … ” That’s a long question, but it’s good.

Reese Harper: Yeah.

Ryan Isaac: “I know you know the area we’re thinking about moving to. You have a good grasp on the dental market. Is it still feasible to practice there?” He’s referring to an area that has a reputation for being a little more saturated, which we have some good data on that. “Is it still feasible to move there with $400,000 in debt, and being able to pay that off while buying a house and a practice,” with, you know, he’s got four kids. Anyway, he says, “As a dentist who wants ownership, should I be investing at all or buying a practice, or should I just be trying to pay off my debts? Should I save capital for the practice? I want to buy a home. I want to start up a practice. Please, any advice would be great, and thanks.” Long question. I had to cut out some things.

Reese Harper: Yeah.

Ryan Isaac: I don’t want to be too super specific.

Reese Harper: What a name.

Ryan Isaac: You got it.

Reese Harper: Just so that listeners know, I’ve consciously, on these Q&A episodes, I try not to-

Ryan Isaac: This is the first time.

Reese Harper: … I haven’t heard this before. I like to not hear these questions in advance, and try to give you guys from the hip answers, because I think it’s just more interesting that way for me, and it’s probably more interesting for you.

Ryan Isaac: Yeah, it’s an adventure for me. It’s an adventure for me.

Reese Harper: And for Ryan, who’s like, “Where is he going to go with this?”

Ryan Isaac: Yeah, I outline where we’re going to … So, let me recap this blog post.

Reese Harper: Well, I mean, I get it. I think I can answer it pretty good.

Ryan Isaac: Okay.

Reese Harper: Not knowing exactly, since you made this all anonymous, on like who was writing this, my first question is who is writing this blog post, because I think the advice that you get about paying off debt versus investing dramatically changes based on the person you ask, and whether they have owned a business or not, okay? If they’ve run a company or if they’ve been employed. If they’ve been employed, most often, this boils down to an interest rate comparison discussion, where it’s like, “Well, my student loans are at 8%. Why would I ever invest at six? I’m an idiot for doing that.”

Ryan Isaac: Right.

Reese Harper: Of course, if that were the math, then you would be an idiot, as Ryan sometimes says.

Ryan Isaac: All the time, actually.

Reese Harper: Actually, he never really labels anyone.

Ryan Isaac: I yell that word. I’m working on it.

Reese Harper: That’s what the blog post is inferring of you, you know, the person that would follow the path of keeping more cash and investing, and not paying off the student loans faster. Here’s my argument. It’s simple math. In the first five to six years of dentistry, how fast does your practice grow on a percentage basis, right? Does it grow at 5% a year? Is it 6% a year? Is it eight? Is it 10, 12? The reality is that in those first five to six years, that practice has a chance to grow at 30 to 50% per year. I mean, it’s an insanely high growth rate, especially if you’re starting a practice from scratch, which would be dangerous. Even if you’re not starting it from scratch, and you’re just growing an existing practice, depending on the size-

Ryan Isaac: You know, maybe it’s slowed down, you bought someone, yeah.

Reese Harper: … depending on the size you buy it at. Let’s say you buy it at peak value. I mean, if you buy it at peak value, that practice still has a chance to be optimized, enhanced, increased in profitability, overhead reduced-

Ryan Isaac: Marketed better.

Reese Harper: … marketed better, kicking off more profit. There’s a ton of opportunity as a business owner, so if you have the business owner lever, and you can pull the lever of a business owner and say, “You know what? If I have some more cash, and I have something to do with it, I’m actually going to be able to take more control of my future and have a higher net worth growth rate in those first four to six years,” that’s what I’m arguing. I’m not arguing take your cash and go set up a mutual fund account and invest it, and compete with your student loan interest rates.

Reese Harper: I’m saying that most often, if you go the route of paying off your student loans, you’re deferring practice ownership for much longer, and you’re deferring your personal net worth growth rate for longer. You’re also deferring your home purchase for longer. You’re deferring getting into the place you want to live and starting your family for longer, and for me, am I willing to take a little bit of a higher interest rate on my student loans for a while to keep liquidity and give myself some options? No question. I don’t even care what your student loan interest rate is.

Reese Harper: If you’re planning on becoming a practice owner, and you’re thinking about doing it in the next few years, then I would accumulate a significant amount of cash reserves. I don’t care if it’s sitting in a checking account getting 0% return. Prepare yourself for the fact that you need to have a good team around you. You need to invest in marketing, you need to invest in proper equipment, you need to have a practice that’s competitive. You need to be in a business owner, entrepreneur mindset, and not in a mindset of interest rate comparing and rates of return comparing. If you’ve got enough money in the bank, if you’ve got 100 to $200,000 liquid, and you’ve got a mortgage payment and you’ve got student loans, if you’ve got some practice debt, you have options.

Reese Harper: You have a lot of leverage you can pull with that liquidity, even if, for over a short period of time, your money is not growing as fast as your student loan interest is accumulating. That doesn’t matter in this example. Now, if you’re not going to be a practice owner and you’re planning on working as an associate for a long period of time, and you have no alternative with that money, like, there’s zero alternative with that money, then I’d say you need to make the consideration of how big your student loan balances are and what the interest rates are, and probably chop them down a little bit, because there’s no point in just sitting on a bunch of cash that you’re never going to deploy and watching your interest accumulate.

Reese Harper: I think you need to take a step back in this situation and look at the overall picture and say, “Am I going to be mentally healthier and more prepared to be a little bit more aggressive business owner, a little bit more aggressive entrepreneur, because I have cash in the bank, and I’ve got dry powder that I can deploy when there’s a problem? I can hire the right office manager, I can hire the right consultant if I get in a bind. I can hire the right collections company to help me with my AR problems, or I can hire the right employee to do that ourselves, or I can hire the right social media manager to help make sure we get our new patient flow the way we want it.”

Reese Harper: If you have dry powder, which is cash, you have options, and what I see is too many young dentists paying off the student loan aggressively, getting into practice ownership with no liquidity, and then feeling like they have their hands tied, and then the practice does not grow as fast, and their personal net worth does not grow as fast. In those first five to six years, I mean, you have a chance to really see, even if you have a large practice, you can see a net worth increase personally that’ll be substantially more than the interest that you’d be paying on your student loans. But again, that’s the answer coming from a business owner who’s been there, and my gut is that potentially, the blog post you’re reading is coming from another employed dentist, doctor, financial advisor who hasn’t run a business. I mean, there’s a lot of people who will have a different perspective because they’re not looking at it in terms of the opportunity cost of capital.

Ryan Isaac: Wow.

Reese Harper: That was a long answer, but I really think-

Ryan Isaac: It was a long question, and it was a long answer. I think that’s really good. You would say, if being a practice owner is a big part of your goals and the direction you want your career-

Reese Harper: Which it should be.

Ryan Isaac: … which it should be, as a dentist, probably, then delaying or putting off or putting that in jeopardy for any reason is probably, like, the worst thing you could do. Like, you don’t want the debt tail to wag the practice dog.

Reese Harper: Never. Yeah, I mean, but I’m not saying that there’s no situation which I would disagree with that advice.

Ryan Isaac: Sure.

Reese Harper: There’s maybe an exception or two that I’m not thinking of, but very often, the reality of most, like, business owners is that if they had more cash and more liquidity to get going a little bit better in those early years, and make a little bit more proactive investments, and felt confident in doing so because they had good advice and they were putting their money in the right buckets, I know it would set them up better at age 50, age 52, age 55. They’d be in a better spot, but a lot of people will just delay, delay, delay, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m just saying it’s a more conservative approach, maybe. That’s a more conservative approach. If you just want to pay off your debt and wait, and then make the shift, there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s just not-

Ryan Isaac: You’ll be owning a practice in your late 40s, probably, instead of-

Reese Harper: Well, you can still own a practice fairly early, right? I mean, but if you think about it, most of these students, yeah, four to $500,000 in debt, I mean, it’ll take you the better part of five to 10 years, depending on what your income is, to really eliminate those student loans.

Ryan Isaac: Well, and what housing decision you go make, and this person’s going to move, so what city do you move to and what’s cost of living?

Reese Harper: Can you confirm with me just if that blog has actually been written by a business owner or not? Can you say that? Or do you know?

Ryan Isaac: It’s written from a physician’s standpoint, where target audience is mostly employed, not self-employed business owners.

Reese Harper: See, and that makes sense to me, because if I’ve got a salary that’s fixed-

Ryan Isaac: A high paying job.

Reese Harper: … and I’ve got a high paying job, and I don’t have an asset that I can grow, like a dentist does, then I’d probably agree with that perspective. I mean, it’s probably the more conservative approach, and it will just take a lot of stress off you. Like, why would you accelerate your student loan payoff if your income’s going to be the same no matter what, basically, because like, going and getting a job as an employed dentist, or as an employed physician, you’re just going to be having an income that’s real [crosstalk 00:17:27].

Ryan Isaac: The argument of that perspective of that article is, “Get your high paying job. Keep living like a resident for three or four years. Get rid of all that debt first before you upgrade the house and the cars and the vacations, and sell stuff, and try to increase your income and put it towards the, you know.”

Reese Harper: Well, you notice I didn’t say go get a nice house and go get nice cars, and go lever up your lifestyle.

Ryan Isaac: Exactly.

Reese Harper: I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about protecting your net worth. You should not buy a home and at the same time you’re trying to start up a practice and give it appropriate capital. I’m the type of person that has happily rented a house while I’m trying to grow a company. I think there’s a big difference between, “I want a lifestyle and a want a practice, and I want to pay down my personal debt.”

Ryan Isaac: They’ll all end up mediocre and stressing you out if you try to do them all at the same time.

Reese Harper: Yeah, prioritize your income, and prioritize your practice, and prioritize where you want to live, and don’t worry about deploying cash into a house and making a down payment. I’m talking about which one’s better financially for you over 10 years, right?

Ryan Isaac: It’s the business.

Reese Harper: Yeah, it’s-

Ryan Isaac: Yeah, and that business decision will drive the rest of everything else you ever do. It will dictate the house you live in, and the vacations you take, and your net worth.

Reese Harper: Be patient with your lifestyle. I would agree, from that perspective. Be really patient with your lifestyle.

Ryan Isaac: Okay, I don’t know if you want to hit this at all or not, and we can get a little bit more specific from his question. I left a little bit of it out, but he talked about choosing a place to work based on saturation, and the ADA, you guys can Google this too, it’s updated for 2018 actually.

Reese Harper: Cool.

Ryan Isaac: It’s really cool, so it has every state, and the number of dentists per 100,000. The US average is 60, so per 100,000 people, there’s 60 dentists, US average, and the state he’s looking at is like, dead on the average.

Reese Harper: Okay.

Ryan Isaac: But historically, this state has a reputation of being a little overly saturated, but it’s definitely not the most saturated. His choice kind of falls within the median range of being [crosstalk 00:19:41].

Reese Harper: What was his assumption? Like, it is saturated or not?

Ryan Isaac: “Too saturated, can’t make enough money. I need to buy a house. I got a big family, need to buy a house, not sure my income. I’m not sure about my business opportunity.”

Reese Harper: Yeah, here’s what I would say is, I mean, if the state that that person was considering really was the most saturated, which it sounds like he’s at the median anyway.

Ryan Isaac: It’s in the median, but I mean, that median, there’s two-thirds of the states that are below the median, you know? It’s not the average. There’s a lot of other places you could go with less saturation. What you could do is you could look at this list, all right, so-

Reese Harper: What’s the worst? Give me the worst and give me the best.

Ryan Isaac: Yeah, I’m just going to give you, so, the best, lowest saturation is Arkansas. What does this tell you? You could go find rural, small town outskirts of Arkansas and probably just kill it for your whole career because no one’s going to move there.

Reese Harper: What’s the density?

Ryan Isaac: It’s 41 dentists per 100,000 residents.

Reese Harper: Okay.

Ryan Isaac: The most dense is District of Columbia. It’s DC, 88. 88.

Reese Harper: So, it’s about a 30% difference in density, worst to better, and what was the …

Ryan Isaac: The state he’s considering is 60, 61, and the US average is 60.

Reese Harper: So the range is 60 to 40 to what?

Ryan Isaac: Well, the low end’s 40, the high end’s 88.

Reese Harper: Oh, okay, so the high end’s 88, the low end’s 40, and then the-

Ryan Isaac: Then the average is around, like, 60.

Reese Harper: Okay.

Ryan Isaac: The state he’s considering is close to the average.

Reese Harper: You can see, though, that we’re talking about a 30% range, right, between these different offices.

Ryan Isaac: It will make a difference in your business, but it’ll also make a very big difference in your family and your lifestyle, and your preference and cost of living.

Reese Harper: Yeah, like, I don’t know, most people I just don’t think are that driven primarily by the money to only go live where they could maximize their income.

Ryan Isaac: Like, “Who cares where I live? I’m just going to pick the lowest density and go there.”

Reese Harper: Yeah, no one’s-

Ryan Isaac: Hey, shout out to Arkansas, okay?

Reese Harper: Well, and shout out to the dentist who’s willing to do that, and just be like, “You know what? I don’t care. Just send me to the top of the list.”

Ryan Isaac: Yeah, “I’ll go there,” but it’s probably more likely that there’s a lot of non-financial factors, and financial factors, that would impact that decision to make it not ideal.

Reese Harper: Well, yeah, like, within a state, I mean, within one state that people live in, there’s a lot of non-financial factors that make someone … Like, Southern California isn’t all expensive, but there are some really expensive places in Southern California.

Ryan Isaac: Saturation in California, you know, that’s the interesting one on this list, actually, because some of the highest saturated ones, it’s like Massachusetts, DC, New Jersey, Hawaii, you know? Alaska, where population’s small, so any number of dentists will excuse that. California’s the interesting one on there because there’s 40 million people, and there’s 75 dentists per 100,000 residents in California.

Reese Harper: So it’s dense.

Ryan Isaac: It’s crazy dense.

Reese Harper: Yeah. I think that would surprise a lot of-

Ryan Isaac: There’s 30,000 dentists. This is ADA data. 30,000 dentists, but it’s against such a high population number, too, that it’s surprising to see such a high density. 76%.

Reese Harper: Well, my gut is that the dense-

Ryan Isaac: I love you, California. I do.

Reese Harper: Well, we all do.

Ryan Isaac: That’s why everyone lives there.

Reese Harper: But that’s what I’m saying, though, is that I would say that the likelihood of this density map, all this is really telling people, if you look at the economics, is it’s where are the best places to live. I mean, like, where are the most attractive places to live? Those are the places that ultimately, given enough time, will probably continue to have the most density.

Ryan Isaac: So there’s probably 15 states here above the average, in terms of density. That would tell us a lot about where dentists prefer to live in the country.

Reese Harper: I think so. I think that’s all it’s really telling you.

Ryan Isaac: Here, why don’t we list them really fast, because it’s kind of interesting.

Reese Harper: Yeah.

Ryan Isaac: Let’s start at the average, which would be basically Montana, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Utah, New Hampshire, Virginia, Nebraska, Illinois, Oregon, Colorado, Maryland, Washington, New York, Alaska, Connecticut, Hawaii, California, Jersey, Massachusetts, DC.

Reese Harper: Those are all the ones at the top of the list?

Ryan Isaac: Those are the highest densities, above the average. Those are all the ones above the average.

Reese Harper: Answering this listener’s question, I would say it has to do with, like, do I really move to this market? Well, first, look at the saturation and be honest about it and say from peak saturation to worse saturation, I mean, this person’s choice was in the middle, right?

Ryan Isaac: Yeah.

Reese Harper: On top of that, knowing that what we’ve seen about each market, there’s a solid opportunity to make a great living in any market. I would get more specific with the market and say, “Where specifically, what research am I going to do? What demographics am I going to grab from local realtors, from any practice management consultants in the area? Any analytics companies? I’m going to try to network and find, you know, a growing pocket. I’m going to try to find an established practice that has a great reputation.” You could live in any city or any area in any state you want. You just need to make the right choice, and it comes down to a practice specific decision. You can buy a good existing mature practice, you can start from scratch, or you can go and find something on the outskirts of a growing company that is kind of an underperforming practice and buy it on the cheap, and grow it three times what you started with.

Ryan Isaac: Okay, that was a great question. Thank you, Philadelphia. I appreciate that one. I was just going to throw out, and maybe we can put this in the show notes, to the debt part of the question, we’ve done two episodes in depth on debt. Episode 73 is called Should You Pay Down Debt or Invest? We get into this quite a bit. You could go to our website, by the way, There’s a link called The Education Library at the top, and then you can sort by topic and by how you want to see the content, read it, listen to it, watch it, so you could go down Education Library. There’s a little drop down menu of Debt and Financing, is what it’s called, the category, and then it will bring up every podcast we’ve ever done, every article.

Reese Harper: Yeah, there’s also a Q&A button that lets you see the most common questions. This is one of them. You can click the Debt tab that’s in there, and it just brings up everything under [crosstalk 00:26:14].

Ryan Isaac: Yeah, but specifically, episode 73, and then episode 102, How Fast Should You Pay Off Your Loans? We did that pretty recently.

Reese Harper: Yeah.

Ryan Isaac: All right, let’s go to the next question. This is from a general dentist in Indiana, and he says, “I would like to start contributing to a backdoor Roth IRA for my wife and I, but the issue is that I have a SEP IRA from a previous employer, and we both have a simple IRA from my office before we transitioned to a 401k a couple years ago. The total amount in the SEP and the simples is around 800,000. I understand I can roll the SEP and the simple into the company 401k and then start contributing to the backdoor Roth. We already have non-deductible IRAs set up. My main question is whether or not it will be worth it, meaning the roll-over, because if I do a roll into the office 401k, I’ll then need to pay the annual fees associated with the total balance in the plan. I really appreciate your thoughts on this. Thanks so much for all you are doing for the profession, GP in Indiana.”

Ryan Isaac: The main question is we have an old SEP IRA, probably from the early days of practice. We have a simple IRA that was probably transitioned to after the SEP that lasted for a little while, and then a couple years ago, they switched from the simple to the 401k. They have this old SEP, the old simple, they’re considering rolling into the 401k, and they’re also, I think the backdoor Roth is kind of a side note. They want to do that. That’s not really the main question. The question is, “Do I roll this big balance from the SEP and the simple into the 401k because of the potential difference in fees in the 401k?”

Reese Harper: As I hear that question, I’m wondering, just to clarify, if this was part of your question, your ability to do the backdoor Roth IRA, you know, that’s fine. If any listener is confused about that, you can do the backdoor Roth IRA and continue to contribute to the 401k without combining these all into one plan.

Ryan Isaac: Yeah, can I just give a plug really fast? We went into some detail on the use of backdoor Roth IRAs, when they make sense, when they’re appropriate, when they’re not, in episode 114. It was our second Q&A, so if you go and find episode 114, What Dentists Want to Know, Listener Q&A #2, one of the questions we talked about in a lot of detail was when to [crosstalk 00:28:36] back to Roth.

Reese Harper: Yeah, and I think that just for today’s sake, just know that this decision of whether you combine all the accounts together doesn’t affect whether you-

Ryan Isaac: It’s independent from that.

Reese Harper: … do the backdoor Roth, right? I think the question of like, fees, is an interesting one, like, “Do I combine these? Because then I’ll have to pay more fees,” and the 401k probably has more fees than his SEP, and it has more fees than the simple.

Ryan Isaac: How about we hit how maybe a 401k fee structure, what it can typically look like?

Reese Harper: Yeah.

Ryan Isaac: Okay.

Reese Harper: Well, I mean, let’s do that. I’ll let you hit that.

Ryan Isaac: Well, I was just going to say, just so people know how 401k … And they can be different. We’ll talk about the differences there can be, but usually, the bulk of the fee, until your balance gets big, is there’s usually an annual fee you pay, and the range of the annual fee, we’ve seen it slightly under $1,000 a year, all the way up to probably $3,000 or more per year just for annual administration fees.

Reese Harper: It depends on how much of the work you want to do.

Ryan Isaac: That’s what it’s based on, how much of the fiduciary responsibility do you want on your shoulders? How much of the liability and the burden if you get sued do you want on your shoulders? How much of employees’ questions and loans and paperwork do you want to-

Reese Harper: You can do them for free. There are ones that they will declare that, “It’s free to have a 401k with us.” Like, I think the ADA’s AXA Equitable 401k plan, I don’t know if they even charge an annual fee.

Ryan Isaac: I can’t remember.

Reese Harper: There’s a different way that they get paid through the investments that kind of makes up for that, but you’ll find 401ks quite often that will say it’s free, and so it can be free to $3,000, so you might say, like, “Well, why would it be free to $3,000?” Ryan was just saying, like, there’s a much different level of responsibility and task management that’s on your plate, and if there’s ever a problem where an employee is disgruntled or you make a mistake with a calculation, the Department of Labor finds you, there’s some risks and liability that you carry if it’s the cheapest option.

Ryan Isaac: Yup. Now, the bulk of this question, though, probably comes because there’s also usually a basis point charge, a percentage of the balance of the account that a 401k will charge on top of the advisor’s fee, if there is one, and on top of mutual fund and investment expenses, and any other admin expenses. There’s an additional one. Here’s where they get different. Sometimes, if a 401k has a really low annual administration fee that you just have to write a check for, if that amount is low-

Reese Harper: Let’s say it’s free.

Ryan Isaac: Let’s say it’s free. They will make up their cost in a higher percentage that they take from the balance of the account, which can go up to … Can it go up to a point?

Reese Harper: Oh yeah.

Ryan Isaac: Half or .7.

Reese Harper: For the platform fees?

Ryan Isaac: Yeah.

Reese Harper: Yeah, you’ll see a percentage that could get … I’ve seen it rival a 1% platform fee.

Ryan Isaac: Okay, and that’s in addition to your advisor and the investment expenses. On the opposite side of this, sometimes when you write a bigger check every year for the administration of the plan, meaning … They call it the third party administration, the TPA work, the compliance, the testing, the reporting, recordkeeping. If that amount out of pocket is higher, sometimes the percentage they charge in the accounts is lower. That’s why it’s kind of a gamble. When the accounts are small and the percentage of the accounts doesn’t translate into a big dollar amount, then it can be in your best interest to go find a plan that has a higher percentage charge in the accounts while your balances are small, but then, that’s the trick, because once the balances grow and they get big, then it’s to your advantage to pay a higher fee out of pocket, just write a check, and have a smaller percentage.

Reese Harper: You’re confusing me, and I’m a financial advisor right now. I don’t even know fees, percentages. I’m confused now.

Ryan Isaac: You have no idea.

Reese Harper: I’m going to highlight something that I think is just interesting, because this question, and your explanation, goes right to why there’s a problem in the 401k industry, because you can’t even in like 30 seconds explain what’s going on in a 401k.

Ryan Isaac: No, I need five minutes and a chart.

Reese Harper: At least.

Ryan Isaac: Yeah, and a spreadsheet.

Reese Harper: We just took five, and I still don’t know what you’re talking about.

Ryan Isaac: You still don’t know what’s going on. Here’s the bulk of this guy’s question-

Reese Harper: Well, I want to make this point that I think that too many people immediately go to the question around, “The percentage that I’m going to pay on my investments is going to really kill my retirement.”

Ryan Isaac: Yeah, like, that’s the main driver.

Reese Harper: Now, I’m not saying that’s not an egregious problem in some cases. Like, it’s usually a big problem. There’s way too much fee gouging in the industry. There’s not a lot of transparency.

Ryan Isaac: Retirement plans are notorious for that, too.

Reese Harper: Let’s own that and say that’s old news. We all know that that’s the case, okay? It’s a bad model, but you know, 10 or 15% of the plans out there are managed by a fiduciary. They are fee only advisors, or you can get them direct from the source and do it yourself. My point is like, the advice I would give to this person, I just know how most people’s mind works, and they’re thinking about these fees more than they’re thinking about the investment allocation. They’re thinking about the fees more than they’re thinking about the performance of their account, and they’re thinking about the fees more than they’re thinking about whether this is even the right type of plan to begin with for this calendar year, and I feel like, because right now, there’s been so much fee gouging in the past, it’s conditioned dentists to be fearful of fees as the primary kind of decision maker around their investments.

Ryan Isaac: As if that’s the reason why people aren’t retiring, is because there was fees.

Reese Harper: Yeah, because of these fees there.

Ryan Isaac: It’s not.

Reese Harper: It’s not because there’s fees in these accounts that people aren’t retiring. It’s because they invest very poorly. People, they have a really bad investment allocation. They don’t expose their money to the right markets.

Ryan Isaac: They don’t take enough risk, or they take too much.

Reese Harper: They don’t take enough risk, or they take too much risk. Well, usually it’s not they don’t take enough proper risk. They don’t grow their capital enough.

Ryan Isaac: They don’t remain consistent in where they put their money.

Reese Harper: They don’t remain consistent with an aggressively tilted portfolio at an early age that’s broadly diversified, and then they use the wrong plan. I would just want to make sure that before we just say, “This is a fees discussion,” is this really the right plan, and does it really matter if the money is in the SEP and the simple and the 401k, or combined? I mean, if we’re going to combine it, it should be because we’re going to improve the investment allocation. We’re going to improve the performance of the overall asset block, because that’s a lot of money, and .5%, plus or minus-

Ryan Isaac: That’s not going to make or break whether you retire on that money.

Reese Harper: Yeah, there could be a four to 5% difference in long-term returns over this issue. I mean, granted, we’re biased. I’m like, totally biased on this, and I own that, but I just think that this is a function that really can be outsourced really well, and it makes financial sense. It’s not super expensive, and it will give dentists more confidence to go and focus on the thing that we talked about in the last question, which is deep entrepreneurial effort around practice growth, practice efficiency, like, getting these things off your plate to where you have someone who can competently advise you on the growth of the assets. It can come at a reasonable cost. Anyway, if you’re going to do this on your own, which I think that there are plenty of listeners here that can and are capable of doing that, I would just want to make sure that rather than focusing only on this fee discussion, we’re focusing on the investment performance, and whether the 401k is really the right mix, really the right plan type for this person’s census. So, let’s assume that that is the case, and this is a fee discussion now, and then you can talk about fees a little bit more.

Ryan Isaac: This is not a simple subject. Geez. The bulk of this question comes because, like, right now in the SEP IRA, there’s not the additional percentage that the 401k company’s taking. In a simple IRA, that’s not. If they opened a rollover IRA, if you go to TD Ameritrade or Fidelity, anywhere, open a rollover IRA and move the SEP and the simple into that, you’ll have a lower fee structure than the 401k. That’s the truth, so that’s true, and so if it’s just purely fees, then yes, you would save more money by taking those two plans, putting them into a rollover IRA. You will have less fees inside of that account than you would in the 401k. Depending on your 401k platform and provider, you’ll likely also have a better investment lineup option, too, because 401k platforms are kind of notorious … Not everybody, but they’ve been notorious for a long time of having very limited investment options.

Reese Harper: I think that’s good advice. I would combine and put them in a rollover, and give myself the best investment allocation I can at the lowest cost, go from scratch in the 401k, and just deal with the options that I have available to me. I’d make sure I have the best 401k possible. You know, you can get a 401k with the same investment flexibility that you have in your rollover, so you’d have to get the right plan set up, and if you’re just setting it up, like, at Vanguard online or something, you’re not going to get the breadth of options that you have if you set it up at Schwab or TD or Fidelity, or an open architecture platform. And a lot of these 401k plans, like, you’ll see like the online 401k, you’ll see America’s Best 401k, you’ll see BenefitGuard. There’s all kinds of like, private labeled 401k plans. The money that they actually manage is usually sitting at one of these big custodians that I mentioned. The money’s usually sitting at TD Ameritrade or Fidelity or Schwab or somewhere, and as long as the back end of those plans is actually at a big custodian like that-

Ryan Isaac: Instead of a mutual fund company, you’re saying.

Reese Harper: Yeah. Like, if it’s an American Funds 401k, you’ve got limited options. If it’s at Vanguard, you have the Vanguard fund lineup. Both of those lineups are decent lineups, but you don’t have unlimited investment flexibility, and you really need that. I mean, is it really possible that one fund family is good at every asset class? No. Not one person can be good at both international bonds and domestic bonds, and municipal and, you know, corporates, and small stocks and emerging countries, and Brazil and China, and Europe. It doesn’t work that way, and so it’s good to have a platform that gives you flexibility to pick from an unlimited list of publicly traded mutual funds at the lowest cost possible.

Ryan Isaac: From people who are best at their own specialty.

Reese Harper: Mm-hmm (affirmative), and that’s going to be really important to your long-term performance. The biggest question here, to me, is, “Is the platform itself going to perform, and is it the right design for my money?” If it is, then I wouldn’t typically recommend mixing the monies together. I mean, if you’re self-directing, just combine the SEP and the simple into a rollover, and then just fund the backdoor Roths and do the 401k independent.

Ryan Isaac: Okay. Let’s move onto the next question. It starts out with, “Love what you guys do.”

Reese Harper: I like that. Thank you.

Ryan Isaac: I’m always going to keep that in there. I’m not going to go right to the question.

Reese Harper: And we love you, loyal listener.

Ryan Isaac: I’m going to go right to the compliment first, so we’re going to go right to the compliment. “Love what you guys do.” Thank you. This is a general dentist in South Dakota. He says, “My question is how to purchase new equipment that is based around good decision making, versus the rep that just comes into the office and you drop $130,000 on a new piece of equipment. How do you budget for new equipment like chairs, hand pieces, new technology, and then how do you budget for just the cool new technology that just seems to come out every year.”

Reese Harper: I think, for me at least, and granted, like, I’ve never been in a dentist’s shoes, so I can’t express how this probably feels, but I know in my own shoes, I’m constantly presented with equipment, technology, and it usually comes in the form of large components of software that I have to invest in in order to be competitive. To manage, you know, the amount of money that we manage and make the decisions that we make, there is no shortage of tools that will help us do our job better, right? Here’s the general, big picture advice that I would give to anyone who’s contemplating whether they should buy something, an input from a $130,000 person that comes in, versus you know, someone that is maybe just being a little bit more of a hermit and working off of archaic, outdated technology.

Ryan Isaac: Hermits.

Reese Harper: You know that practice, right? It’s just this-

Ryan Isaac: Yeah.

Reese Harper: It’s just too outdated, and-

Ryan Isaac: They’ve held out.

Reese Harper: … it scares patients a little bit, right? Now, here’s what I would say. It’s about the personal competency of the provider of care. It’s about the dentist and their own personal competence, and it’s not about the technology. I would think of it in terms of, “Is this piece of technology actually helps me do my job in a more competent way that I can live with, that I feel good about, that is the type of care I want to provide?” Then to me, I don’t think you’re being sold on that. I think you’re just making a conscious choice about how you want to practice. I think that, to me, is the driver, is there isn’t like a right or wrong budget, and there’s not, like, a good or bad piece of technology. There’s going to be a tendency for most of us to constantly say yes to everything that we’re sold, if it’s from a good equipment provider or a talented salesperson, because there’s a good reason that all of these products actually exist in the market, and there’s a demand for them. At some point, I was given advice by my grandpa that I still think I really appreciate, and he told me, he said-

Ryan Isaac: Please be a farm analogy. Please be a farm analogy. “Don’t swim with your shirt on.”

Reese Harper: No, he didn’t say that, but you know, I had this horse, okay. It wasn’t my horse, per se.

Ryan Isaac: I wish we could cue some music right now.

Reese Harper: I mean, it was like a shared, communal horse when I was younger, okay. A lot of people shared this horse.

Ryan Isaac: Yeah, totally.

Reese Harper: Its name was Bonnie.

Ryan Isaac: It was a co-op. It was a horse co-op.

Reese Harper: It was mostly mine, okay.

Ryan Isaac: You owned the hindquarters.

Reese Harper: I owned the front left leg, like, contractually.

Ryan Isaac: Okay, so Bonnie, Bonnie and the co-op.

Reese Harper: I remember, like, I was riding this horse around with my grandpa, and I literally fell off of the horse and landed on the cement pad, okay. The saddle just came off, and I was holding onto the saddle horn, and I just fell off and landed on the cement. We weren’t actually even going. We were just standing there, and I just leaned, and we fell off. I kind of like, hit my shoulder and my head on the cement, and this whole thing, and it was, you know, just a normal moment.

Ryan Isaac: A normal Idaho head injury.

Reese Harper: I remember looking up and just going, “What just happened?” I just remember him saying like, “Well, it lasted this long,” and he was talking about the saddle. “It lasted this long,” and he wasn’t really concerned about me.

Ryan Isaac: He was just making an observation.

Reese Harper: The thing had finally fallen apart, right?

Ryan Isaac: The buckle didn’t buckle anymore.

Reese Harper: Yeah, and I thought about this later on in my life, and I remember thinking, like, “That’s kind of the way that people used to do it, you know? They just literally rode that saddle for like 40 years, and it was like, hanging on by a thread, and someone almost died at the end from using it.”

Ryan Isaac: And that’s the first thought they had was like, “Eh.”

Reese Harper: And they’re like, “Well, it was good use. Got good use out of that,” and they used it to the point where it almost killed someone. That’s the way people used to do it. I’m not there, necessarily, but I’m just saying, like-

Ryan Isaac: This is amazing.

Reese Harper: … we didn’t have any debt in our country at that point, okay, and we didn’t have as much debt on our houses, and we had more money in the bank, so I don’t like to see brand new cerec machines sitting there doing one crown a month. I mean, I just don’t like to see that. To me, it’s just a waste of time. Just save the environment by letting that lab do that crown. If you’re going to take on the piece of equipment, which I think is worthwhile, and it makes you a better dentist, this technology, it makes you better, and it makes you more capable, I just want to see this stuff get used.

Ryan Isaac: Okay, so is this-

Reese Harper: Use it. Wear it out.

Ryan Isaac: I feel like we took on a country kind of accent as we got into that. That was cool. Is it education prior, though? Like, you were saying this comes down to the provider, the clinical provider, knowing when this stuff will make a difference or not, so is this a spend on CE and training before you even start considering these things, and if a rep tells you break even, is it this many units, then you have to-

Reese Harper: I think there’s too much distrust of the equipment industry, and I don’t like that, because I know most of the guys that are in these businesses, and they want to build actual, real relationships with-

Ryan Isaac: Yeah, they see themselves as business consultants.

Reese Harper: Yeah, and if you don’t have someone like that, I just think it’s a phone call away from finding the right person, and if you’re finding, like, “I don’t really have a consultant who can educate me on this stuff,” it’s a phone call away. Every vendor’s got someone in your market that you’re going to be able to trust, respect, and appreciate, and I know that’s what I would do.

Ryan Isaac: That will come teach you about things, not sell it to you.

Reese Harper: Yeah, if it was me, and I was comparing two options, I would want to get a couple of opinions from people I trust, and then go with it. I just think there’s a tendency we have to replace our stuff too soon, and to not use it long enough, and assume that we’re not going to be competitive because we don’t have everything upgraded to the point where everyone else has it, but I just don’t think patients have visibility into that, just like I couldn’t tell that my saddle was broken. Now, unfortunately-

Ryan Isaac: You did afterwards.

Reese Harper: … you shouldn’t go quite as long as we did with that saddle. You run into some liability and your malpractice insurance may not cover that.

Ryan Isaac: Yeah, you don’t want to carve a hole in someone’s cheek and be like, “Well, the drill lasted that long. Interesting.” Okay, so here would be my question too. I thinK this listener might be wondering the same thing. Do I set aside cash every year or every month or quarter in order to just pay for this stuff eventually, or is there a threshold where it’s like, you know, anything under 20, $30,000, go ahead and write a check for it out of the business if you’ve got the cash sitting there? Otherwise, dental financing for equipment is like, instantaneous, it’s cheap, you can get it for anything you want. Like, don’t use your cash instead of getting a 4.5% loan for some equipment. Use your cash and put it in your investments or put it in your business, or put it in your marketing and just get that 4.5% loan for some equipment when you need it, when you’re educated to the point where you know why you’re getting it.

Reese Harper: Yeah, I would finance it all, and I would just kind of keep it at a percentage of my total collections. I might say, look, you know, if I’m at 5% of collections on payments for equipment, I’m like, way too high. If I’m at two to 2.5% of my gross collections on payments for equipment my whole career, and I’m just constantly rotating through that, and that’s just what it costs to keep me upgraded-

Ryan Isaac: It’s a cost of business, a piece of the P&L.

Reese Harper: … that’s probably someone who’s going to be a little more progressive. I mean, I just don’t think there’s a badge of honor to not have any equipment payments. I don’t think it’s like, respectful to be like, “You know, I’ve never had to have a piece of debt for a piece of equipment in my entire career. I’ve paid cash for everything.” Well, you can choose to do that, or maybe it cost 10% more total throughout your entire career to have financed all your equipment purchasing, but the cool thing about financing it and using a percentage of your collections is you can just kind of say, “Look, I’m going to kind of hold my reinvestment budget to 1% of collections, 2% of collections, 2.5%. I’m going to hold that. That’s what my payments are going to be, and then from there, I’m going to just continue to reinvest, and if I don’t need anything, then that’s great. I won’t have any payments for a while, but I’m not going to be afraid to have them when they’re there.”

Reese Harper: I just don’t like to see them get too high, or I’d probably want to wipe them out, because eventually, your cash flow gets too … Because that’s income that gets counted towards your taxable income, because these are such high principal payments. I mean, you buy $100,000 piece of equipment, the majority of that is a principal payment, which you’re taxed on. And they’re kind of like car loans. They’re short-term, they’re low interest, and I mean, I would just prefer to be more liquid and be more progressive with my marketing, be putting larger retirement plan contributions away, getting into a defined benefit plan and cash balance plan earlier in my career to bring my taxes down even further.

Ryan Isaac: Or, even if you’re saying, “I’m going to pay off higher debt at higher rates,” then the cheap equipment loan.

Reese Harper: Yup. I think so.

Ryan Isaac: Okay.

Reese Harper: That kind of a question, never finance anything under $10,000.

Ryan Isaac: Yeah.

Reese Harper: I think if it’s getting to 25 or above, you know, somewhere in that range, I would just say well, it’s starting to be a meaningful piece of cash flow. I mean, for most practices, $25,000 represents several months of after tax profitability.

Ryan Isaac: Well, what if you took 25,000 in cash and just invested it for 10 years or 20 years? I mean, that’s a different-

Reese Harper: And those extra six to 12 months that you’re going to get, they make a big difference on the back end of 10 years, so it starts to get different at that stage. I think that’s probably the range of when I’d start thinking about financing.

Ryan Isaac: Okay. Well, thank you, everyone, for listening. We have a new website that took a long time, and it’s finally launched. Go to We were talking about this earlier. We have a financial education library for dentists, with videos, podcasts-

Reese Harper: Lots of videos, and yes, I did lose some weight. Thank you.

Ryan Isaac: Is that a comment?

Reese Harper: Everyone’s been saying that. Everyone’s been saying, “It looks like you lost weight.”

Ryan Isaac: On the new videos?

Reese Harper: Actually, no one has said that. No one has said that yet at all.

Ryan Isaac: Oh my gosh. Oh, I’m sorry.

Reese Harper: But I did think it looked like I gained some weight from all the videos we put on there. I was like, I need to start asking-

Ryan Isaac: The camera adds 20 pounds. Anyway, we got videos, podcasts, articles, e-guides, everything you could ever want to know, so go to It’s called the Education Library, and there’s resources for financial planning, taxes, debt, savings, spending, work-life balance, everything.

Reese Harper: We have Sudoku and we have some Solitaire games.

Ryan Isaac: I love Solitaire.

Reese Harper: We also have Frogger, the old school version, and an old Atari remix.

Ryan Isaac: I wish we had, like, an Atari emulator on our website where they could be like, “Do you want to learn about debt, taxes, or play Atari?”

Reese Harper: If the Education Library wasn’t a big enough motivation, we do have small vintage games also.

Ryan Isaac: Hidden in there. No, we don’t, but we should. I think we should. No, honestly, you spent a lot of time and resources building that thing, and it’s cool-

Reese Harper: Thank you, young man.

Ryan Isaac: … you click on it, and you can just drop down to the subject you want, and it’ll filter for you all the media.

Reese Harper: You’re more excited about it than the clients.

Ryan Isaac: I love it, because I’m like, “Oh, I have an answer for you. Check out the website.” So, If you click on the Podcast tabs, that’s the Dentist Money Show, there’s button that says Submit a Question. That’s where we get these questions from, and apparently the button is well liked.

Reese Harper: Hot.

Ryan Isaac: It’s a hot button.

Reese Harper: It’s a hot button.

Ryan Isaac: Careful when you touch it. Click Submit a Question. It’s anonymous. We like to know where you’re from, what specialty you practice in, and leave us a lot of compliments. Reese likes those, makes him feel good.

Reese Harper: Keep it positive, people.

Ryan Isaac: Keep it happy.

Reese Harper: Maybe compliment that you’ve noticed that I’ve lost weight.

Ryan Isaac: Can someone start a question by complimenting on Reese’s looks and physique, please? Can someone just start a question for that? That’s guaranteed to get into the next episode.

Reese Harper: It’s embarrassing to be on so many videos. I’m sure you know that.

Ryan Isaac: Man, we’re going to be made fun of in the future by our kids.

Reese Harper: Oh, that already happens.

Ryan Isaac: “Dad, you’re such a nerd.” Of course, if you’re ready and you’d like to have a chat with us and talk about some of these questions, you can book a free consultation on our website, so go to Right on the main page, there’s our Book a Consultation link. It’s our calendar, so you pick a time that works best for you. We’ll talk about your questions, your situation, we’ll talk about our business and how we might be able to help you in your situation, so check that out, or you can call us at any time. 833-DDS-PLAN. Love to hear from you. Thanks.

Reese Harper: Carry on.

Retirement Plans, Debt & Financing

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