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Most people have irrational fears, like a fear of flying, of heights, or spiders, or snakes. Fear is a product of human evolution as our brains are hardwired to avoid risk, like evading threats to our life—and even the loss of money. On this episode of the Dentist Money Show, Ryan and Matt look at how five tips for overcoming the fear of flying also work well for people with investophobia.
Show notes:
How Science and Psychology Helped Me Overcome My Fear of Flying
Podcast Transcript
Ryan Isaac:
And welcome back to the Dentist Money Show, brought to you by Dentist Advisors, a no commission fee only fiduciary, comprehensive financial advisor just for dentists all over the country. Check us out @dentistadvisors.com. Today on the show, Matt and I talk about the fear of flying and what do we do instinctively when we get a little bit scared on some bumpy, turbulent plane rides? And a cool article that somebody wrote on overcoming the fear of flying and how actually a lot of these principles relate to making better money decisions. Really fun episode to do with Matt. Love sharing stories, sharing studio space, being in studio with Matt. Great as always. And thanks to all of you for being here. If you have any questions, just go to dentistadvisors.com. As always, you can click the free consultation button. We’d love to have a chat with you and point you in the right direction and answer your money questions. Thanks for being here everybody. Enjoy the show.
Announcer:
Consultant advisor. Conduct your own due diligence when making financial decisions. General principles discussed during this program do not constitute personal advice. This program is furnished by Dentist Advisors or Registered Investment Advisor. This is Dentist Money. Now here’s your host, Ryan Isaac.
Ryan Isaac:
Welcome to the Dentist Money Show, where we help dentists make smart financial decisions. I am Ryan in studio, in person in the flesh with Matt Mulcock. What is up Matt?
Matt Mulcock:
Yo Ryan in the flesh.
Ryan Isaac:
Here we are.
Matt Mulcock:
We are sitting here with our afternoon coffees.
[laughter]
Matt Mulcock:
And like always yours is… Have you even had a sip of that thing?
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. I’m a light… All of my beverages are… I’m a light sipper.
Matt Mulcock:
I thought I was until I met you.
Ryan Isaac:
No. You’re a guzzler. You’re like a truck from the 1980s.
[laughter]
Matt Mulcock:
I’m just guzzling.
Ryan Isaac:
You’re like a Ford F350 dude.
Matt Mulcock:
[laughter] Oh. My gosh.
Ryan Isaac:
And I’m like a Prius.
[laughter]
Matt Mulcock:
Much more efficient.
Ryan Isaac:
I’m efficient.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
But I think yours is more fun.
Matt Mulcock:
Probably.
Ryan Isaac:
You get more bang for your buck out of each gulp.
Matt Mulcock:
Exactly.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. It is afternoon time. So got a story here. Question for you though. Have you ever disliked flying? Like has that ever bothered you? Have you ever been scared on a flight?
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
By the way?
Matt Mulcock:
Oh yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
This is where the story’s going. I was thinking about this flying in yesterday, but I was… Have you ever been scared on a flight?
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah, there’s been times like turbulence.
Ryan Isaac:
Can you remember like a big…
Matt Mulcock:
Yes, I definitely… I mean, I don’t… It wasn’t like some big drawn out story. It was more just, yeah, there’s been times… So coming into Salt Lake, sometimes people don’t know this, but…
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah, it’s bad.
Matt Mulcock:
The pressure, like coming from…
Ryan Isaac:
Turbulence from like mountains.
Matt Mulcock:
High to low and into the valley. I don’t know how it all works, but…
Ryan Isaac:
I don’t know either. That seems right.
Matt Mulcock:
Something with the slip air stream of the…
Ryan Isaac:
Oh the slip air stream.
Matt Mulcock:
Rotator girder thing.
Ryan Isaac:
The girder gets you every time though. Every time.
Matt Mulcock:
The girder gets me now. No, but like something about coming into Salt Lake. The other one is Chicago. So I’ve flown to Chicago a couple times.
Ryan Isaac:
I haven’t noticed there.
Matt Mulcock:
And both, there’s been situations where both where, yeah. I’ve had like…
Ryan Isaac:
Just bouncing.
Matt Mulcock:
The plane drops. It almost feels like…
Ryan Isaac:
That feels so weird.
Matt Mulcock:
That kind of stuff where it makes you jump. But have I ever been in a situation where…
Ryan Isaac:
Like legit might die?
Matt Mulcock:
No.
Ryan Isaac:
Not really.
Matt Mulcock:
No.
Ryan Isaac:
I haven’t either. But I don’t really wanna talk about this too much because I’m getting on a plane in like three hours.
[laughter]
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah, I was gonna say, you gotta be careful.
Ryan Isaac:
I kind of don’t really, it’s like talking about sharks before you go surf. You’re like, let’s just not, and we’ll talk about this later.
Matt Mulcock:
Can’t do it. Yep.
Ryan Isaac:
I’m curious though, when you… Is there anything you do when you… Do you have any reactions when it does start to get turbulent? Do you do anything to feel comfortable? Do you sit up taller? Do you tighten the seatbelt, you look around?
Matt Mulcock:
I grab the sides.
Ryan Isaac:
You do?
Matt Mulcock:
Or like, it just natural reaction. I grab the person next to me.
Ryan Isaac:
You grab them and scream.
Matt Mulcock:
And even say, ah.
Ryan Isaac:
We’re gonna die.
[laughter]
Matt Mulcock:
Freak out. “We’re all gonna die.”
Ryan Isaac:
I think people actually go through that. Fear of flying is pretty common.
Matt Mulcock:
Oh yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. It’s like a pretty big fear. Here’s what I was…
Matt Mulcock:
Which is actually ironic because it’s way safer than driving.
Ryan Isaac:
Well, I mean, all right. Are you more scared of getting in your car today or paddling out where there are great white sharks in the water and that are spotted like daily?
Matt Mulcock:
I’d be…
Ryan Isaac:
What would scare you more?
Matt Mulcock:
It’s not even…
Ryan Isaac:
It’s not even close.
Matt Mulcock:
Close.
Ryan Isaac:
It’s not even close.
Matt Mulcock:
Not even the sharks.
Ryan Isaac:
If I showed you a drone video of a person who flew a drone yesterday in a spot where there are great white sharks swimming under everybody, and I said, we’re gonna go paddle around right there, or we’re gonna get in a car. What are you more scared of? It’s not even close.
Matt Mulcock:
Not even close.
Ryan Isaac:
Not even remotely close.
Matt Mulcock:
You’d have to… I don’t even know if you could…
Ryan Isaac:
Drug you.
Matt Mulcock:
Pay me or.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. I think that…
Matt Mulcock:
You have to drug me and then pay me.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah and pay you. Pay you drug you.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah. You gotta…
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. It’s funny.
Matt Mulcock:
Thats Friday night.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. [laughter] That does describe an average Friday.
Matt Mulcock:
Edit.
Ryan Isaac:
Drug you pay you. Okay. But, yeah, it’s really fascinating. What I was noticing on the plane yesterday is that I was sitting on an aisle and when it got turbulent, my first reaction was to look to a window. I wanted to see relative to the ground how the turbulence looked.
Matt Mulcock:
And how fast you were gonna die?
Ryan Isaac:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because in your… Okay, if you’re in this fuselage, which is a word for planes.
Matt Mulcock:
Proper term. Yep. I like that. The fuselage.
Ryan Isaac:
The plane. And you’re just sitting there, but it’s like, they’ll darken the lights and then a lot of times if it’s really sunny or bright, people have all the windows shut.
Matt Mulcock:
Yep.
Ryan Isaac:
There’s something weird about turbulence.
Matt Mulcock:
When you can’t…
Ryan Isaac:
That feels extra scary when you can’t see the contact.
Matt Mulcock:
There’s no reference point.
Ryan Isaac:
There’s no reference point.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
So are you 10 feet off the ground?
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Or are the wing’s totally sideways? And it’s always funny to me when the turbulence feels crazy and then you look out the window and it feels like nothing.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Like it doesn’t look like anything’s happening.
Matt Mulcock:
Totally.
Ryan Isaac:
And it’s very calming to me. I don’t know if anyone else feels that way.
Matt Mulcock:
I can see that.
Ryan Isaac:
If that’s like a reaction people have, like I just wanna see outside what’s going on.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Like are we sideways? Is the ground really close?
Matt Mulcock:
Are the wings still on?
Ryan Isaac:
Are they on, is anything on fire?
Matt Mulcock:
Is there smoke? Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
So that’s what I do. I also only tighten extra tight my seatbelt, I wear it the whole time, but I only tighten it really tight during takeoff and landing. ‘Cause that’s… I mean, the seatbelt might save me during those periods of time. Otherwise a tight seatbelt is not saving me for anything. The whole time.
Matt Mulcock:
I mean, I’m not gonna lie, man…
Ryan Isaac:
Do you even wear it?
Matt Mulcock:
I’m no expert here. But if the plane goes down. There’s no seatbelt in the world that’s gonna save you.
Ryan Isaac:
But if you skid off a runway takeoff or landing, a seatbelt can help. You’re probably gonna be okay.
Matt Mulcock:
Totally.
Ryan Isaac:
But if you fall from 30,000, it doesn’t matter.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
I don’t wanna bounce off the ceiling though, so I do keep it on loosely.
Matt Mulcock:
It’s a good call.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. Anyway.
Matt Mulcock:
I’m the guy that barely puts it on.
Ryan Isaac:
Really? Alright.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
You get yelled at? [laughter]
Matt Mulcock:
Sometimes.
Ryan Isaac:
You get yelled at?
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:Okay. So I was thinking about this when I was flying yesterday and I was trying to find, I was like, there’s gotta be a study of looking out the window during turbulence. I couldn’t find anything. It makes me wanna…
Matt Mulcock:
Weird.
Ryan Isaac:
I know.
Matt Mulcock:
Like I can, seems so…
Ryan Isaac:
It seems like a very complicated…
Matt Mulcock:
Readily studied.
Ryan Isaac:
Very complicated. Come on It seems like a big study. Someone fund this study Dentist, someone fund this fucking study.
Matt Mulcock:
Seems really critical. Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
But I did find, here’s what I did find that was actually interesting for our podcast today. I found this article that is called… How science and psychology helped me overcome my fear of flying.
Matt Mulcock:
Okay.
Ryan Isaac:
And I was like, all right, whatever. I’ll just kind of read this. ‘Cause I was still looking for data on my question, but this person wrote this blog post. I mean, let’s give them some credit here. It’s on, the Pointsguy.com.
Matt Mulcock:
Oh yeah. We know the Points Guy.
Ryan Isaac:
Do yo know, the Points guy?
Matt Mulcock:
He’s actually honestly, like big time. He does a lot of credit card point, type blogging.
Ryan Isaac:
Now I’m being sexist because I said, I mean it’s the Points guy.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
But it’s written by someone named Catherine.
Matt Mulcock:
So the points guy I believe has turned into a full business now…
Ryan Isaac:
Oh big team.
Matt Mulcock:
He got the whole brand…
Ryan Isaac:
Okay.
Matt Mulcock:
He’s like, I think they got bought or, anyway, he’s big time…
Ryan Isaac:
Okay. Points guy.
Matt Mulcock:
He started it as the Points guy and now it’s a whole team.
Ryan Isaac:
So, the pointsguy.com. But it’s an article how science and psychology helped me overcome my fear of flying by Katherine Fan. So anyway, I was like I wanted to find something that I was looking for, but I ended up finding her list of things that helped her get over the fear of flying and it was kind of funny to me, how I thought they related really well to, you could say getting over your fear of if you’re being really specific investing or just getting over your fear of money in general, financial decisions, being comfortable with your money, and I think some of these were really good.
Matt Mulcock:
Pretty spot on.
Ryan Isaac:
And it makes me wonder like, oh dude, I wonder if there’s a phobia of money, of finances. I’ll bet that’s true. Yeah. There’s got to be phobia for this stuff.
Matt Mulcock:
There has to be.
Ryan Isaac:
The phobia of finance or the… The fear of money is called Chrometophobia.
Matt Mulcock:
Oh yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Do you know that?
Matt Mulcock:
Totally. Chrometophobia.
Ryan Isaac:
This is actually kind of an interesting search. Why am I scared of finances overcome fear of money? So the fear of money, Chrometophobia, that’s really fascinating. I wonder, it’s got to feel as… It’s got to feel as scary as some things like the fear of spiders or the fear of flying or the fear of sharks and being in the ocean. It’s got to feel like that big of a threat to some people.
Matt Mulcock:
It’s got to be, if you had the full on, full blown…
Ryan Isaac:
Chrometophobia.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Say it with us.
Matt Mulcock:
Correct, say it with us everyone.
Ryan Isaac:
I was talking to a friend recently and she was talking about, we were talking about my job, my career, and kind of what it’s like to be a financial advisor and talk to people about their money. She used a term that I thought was really interesting because we got into the discussion of like, how our psychology and our upbringing affects the way that we think about money and interact with money, and then what having money or not having money does to our feelings and our emotions and our behaviour.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
She used the term, she was talking about herself and she was saying, “oh, I have a lot of money wounds,” like money wounding.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
She was using that term and I was like, that’s really interesting. I think that’s a good way to describe how a lot of people probably feel about money and finances in general, depending on how they grew up.
Matt Mulcock:
Oh yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
There’s people who grew up very poor and maybe they grow up and they hoard everything. Or maybe they grow up and they spend like crazy.
Matt Mulcock:
They go the other way. Yeah, exactly.
Ryan Isaac:
I mean, it’s just fascinating how our psychology develops along the way and then affects our money behaviour.
Matt Mulcock:
: That’s all. Money is, right? It’s like, it’s just like…
Ryan Isaac:
A reflection…
Matt Mulcock:
Manifestation of our feelings and psychology and emotions.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
That’s all it is. Money is neutral, it’s just a thing…
Ryan Isaac:
Neutral, it’s… Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
It’s a piece of paper. The meaning we attribute to it that matters.
Ryan Isaac:
Totally. And it’s like, do we attribute insecurity to our money? Do we attribute our fear?
Matt Mulcock:
Ego.
Ryan Isaac:
Our ego, our greed, our pride, our like, man, I’m tell, like we, financial therapy. I’m rebranding myself…
Matt Mulcock:
We’re rebranding Dentists advisors.
[laughter]
Ryan Isaac:
Until we’re all gonna say this.
Matt Mulcock:
We’re a financial therapist but dentists.
Ryan Isaac:
I wanna be a financial therapist.
Matt Mulcock:
Let’s do it.
Ryan Isaac:
I don’t want to be an advisor anymore. I want to be a financial therapist. ‘Cause like…
Matt Mulcock:
You are seeing the real life career change happening.
[laughter]
Ryan Isaac:
Evolution.
Matt Mulcock:
The evolution of Matt and Ryan in real time. Well, not real time. It’s recorded.
Ryan Isaac:
It’s recorded. But I mean for us it’s real…
Matt Mulcock:
Basically real.
Ryan Isaac:
Anyway, so here’s this person’s list of things that helped her overcome fear of flying and I mean, I thought these were really applicable, so let’s go through a few of these and I think they relate to fear of, I don’t know how fear of money could be broken down. Is it fear of, some people fear actually making money. They’re scared and they don’t believe they can. Some people are frightened about losing it. Some people they have fear around, well, not making the right decision, not growing it enough. There’s probably a million things people have fear over money, but anyway.
Matt Mulcock:
Or how about the fear of, like, FoMO? The FoMO, I’m investing one way. I heard my buddy did this or that.
Ryan Isaac:
Yes, totally different.
Matt Mulcock:
FoMO. It’s like the.
Ryan Isaac:
Yes.
Matt Mulcock:
And that to me, like fear is basically the number one when it comes to investing or a lot of money mistakes. Fear is the emotion I think comes is the number one emotion that leads to those mistakes. If you think about it, someone might say, well what about greed? What is greed? It’s literally just FoMO. Fear of missing out. That’s what greed is. So it’s just fear.
Ryan Isaac:
Everything is fear based.
Matt Mulcock:
Everything is fear based.
Ryan Isaac:
Unless you live in a middle ground between fear and greed.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
What is that ground called.
Matt Mulcock:
Purgatory? I don’t know.
[laughter]
Ryan Isaac:
The point between fear and greed in money.
Matt Mulcock:
Happiness.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. It’s got to be some kind of nirvana, money nirvana.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah. It’s… Yeah I don’t know. That’s a good question.
Ryan Isaac:
It’s called being a client of Dentist Advisors.
[laughter]
Ryan Isaac:
Go to dentistadvisor.com, right now.
Matt Mulcock:
It’s called, calling us yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Number one point on here, so applicable, avoid sensational media. That was her number one tip for overcoming her fear of flying.
Matt Mulcock:
Bro, that could Just be for money.
Ryan Isaac:
I would say the same thing about everyone’s scared of sharks in the ocean.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
It literally does not happen at all remotely. Like how it happens in every movie.
Matt Mulcock:
No.
Ryan Isaac:
With money and most shows that have like a plane sequence in them usually don’t turn out well.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah. Even presenting that scenario right, you’re saying, you just presented it to me, would you rather go out in a shark infested waters on a paddleboard or get in your car? The vividness to me of what would happen with a shark attack…
Ryan Isaac:
Comes from movies.
[laughter.
Matt Mulcock:
Comes from movies and just like, I immediately relate vividness or salience to probability, that’s how my brain works, right? I’m
thinking because it’s so vivid and salient, I’m like… I can imagine that type of death, right? How scary that is.
Ryan Isaac:
It’s so vivid that it seems more probable.
Matt Mulcock:
Seems more probable.
Ryan Isaac:
That’s crazy.
Matt Mulcock:
We do that all the time. I think with everything.
Ryan Isaac:
There’s gotta be studies on the link between…
Matt Mulcock:
I’m sure there’s studies on that.
Ryan Isaac:
Salience and probability.
Matt Mulcock:
Salience and the inaccurate…
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. The perception.
Matt Mulcock:
Perception of probability. For sure.
Ryan Isaac:
That is so true. Yeah. That’s crazy.
Matt Mulcock:
‘Cause even think about the animals in the… We’re just equating like sharks. We’ve done this before I think the probability of dying from a shark…
Ryan Isaac:
Oh yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
Versus a mosquito bite.
Ryan Isaac:
Oh yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
You are far more likely to die from a mosquito bite.
Ryan Isaac:
It’s the most deadly animal in the whole world.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
But you would never be scared of a mosquito…
Ryan Isaac:
You’re not scared of it.
Matt Mulcock:
But you’re terrified of a shark.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
We miscalculate the probability of an outcome based on salience or vividness.
Ryan Isaac:
We miscalculate the probability and the risk of something.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Based on the sensationalism of however it’s presented in media.
Matt Mulcock:
Even a plane versus a car.
Ryan Isaac:
Oh yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
A car is way more dangerous.
Ryan Isaac:
And people are scared of flying like crazy.
Matt Mulcock:
Terrified.
Ryan Isaac:
But not driving to the airport.
Matt Mulcock:
No.
Ryan Isaac:
They should be.
Matt Mulcock:
You’re way more likely…
[laughter]
Ryan Isaac:
They should be scared of driving to the airport.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah. Yep.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. But a bad plane situation in a movie is really bad.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
It’s terrible. Okay. So avoid sensational media in money terms. That’s pretty straight forward.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
But these days…
Matt Mulcock:
It’s everywhere. Avoid TikTok, basically.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. I was just gonna say that’s generationally different. One generation, it would’ve been newspapers.
Matt Mulcock:
Yep.
Ryan Isaac:
Newsletters, certain money magazines, another generation, it’ll be cable news. It’ll be cable financial news.
Matt Mulcock:
Yep.
Ryan Isaac:
And then younger generations, it’s social media.
Matt Mulcock:
Yep.
Ryan Isaac:
We just did a pod… We were just talking about this, another podcast and did this with the… Shout out to the guiding leaders.
Matt Mulcock:
Guiding leaders.
Ryan Isaac:
The study on where people get their financial information from. And a good chunk, like 20% or so was financial media or finance… Social media.
Matt Mulcock:
Social media. And I imagine that’s…
Ryan Isaac:
To help get the financial platform. It’s 22% or something.
Matt Mulcock:
They didn’t break this down. I’d imagine though, in that survey, that was the younger age cohort would I’d imagine.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. It would be.
Matt Mulcock:
Or the olders… The older generations using.
Ryan Isaac:
The olders?
[laughter]
Matt Mulcock:
The olders.
Ryan Isaac:
I’m in there. That’s fine. You can tell me the olders.
Matt Mulcock:
The older, the oldies, are using more traditional media sources. I’d imagine.
Ryan Isaac:
I’m in the age where I… When I hear financial media, I still think of CNBC.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. But I don’t think younger people than me would think CNBC.
Matt Mulcock:
They think YouTube.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. YouTube or TikTok.
Matt Mulcock:
TikTok or… Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
I would think Twitter.
Ryan Isaac:
They think TikTok.
Matt Mulcock:
Yep. For sure.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. Twitter. Yeah. You’re totally right. So social media, avoid sensational media. It’s interesting how much you can cut out of your negative emotions in the world by just avoiding that.
Matt Mulcock:
Oh yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Just cut some of that stuff out. So…
Matt Mulcock:
Honestly, if it weren’t for 2 cents, which we do every week, right? The new segment we do.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
If it weren’t for that, I would… I don’t look at the news.
Ryan Isaac:
I don’t either.
Matt Mulcock:
Ever.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
I’m doing it to try to find stuff to talk about and give a different perspective on.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. Intentional. You’re intentional…
Matt Mulcock:
Intentionally.
Ryan Isaac:
You’re going to find a subject intentionally.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Which is probably fine. If you’re sitting there wondering about, I don’t know, interest rates.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Because right now, when we’re recording, it’s high interest rates. If you’re intentionally out there, searching for data and information and trying to learn on interest rate, that’s probably fine.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
As opposed to listening to a super fear field message of doom and gloom.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
From a TikTok account.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Or a segment on CNBC.
Matt Mulcock:
Yep. Exactly. The problem with media, we’ve talked about this before, is motivations number one, meaning the motivation of the people that are putting out information. The motivation and the intent behind it is not to inform you or help you make good decisions, it’s to get you to keep clicking and keep your eyeballs on the screen. So they have to be sensationalist. They have to be…
Ryan Isaac:
Has to be crazy, man.
Matt Mulcock:
It has to be crazy with their opinions…
Ryan Isaac:
Has to be scary.
Matt Mulcock:
Yes. There’s also a saying or a quote, I don’t know, I can’t remember who said it, but the… “A wealth of information leads to a poverty of attention”.
Ryan Isaac:
Whoa.
Matt Mulcock:
Right? And that’s never been more true today with all the different things that are out there. It’s like when you are bombarded by every… Endless amounts…
Ryan Isaac:
Constantly.
Matt Mulcock:
Of content, news sources.
Ryan Isaac:
Everywhere.
Matt Mulcock:
Every podcast and all this.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
How do you ever focus on anything? I think this is why pretty much nowadays… I’m gonna guess there’s studies on this as well. The level of attention span or ability to sit in a room and just be alone.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
It’s gotta be at an all time low.
Ryan Isaac:
Well, it has to be. Whenever I watch old movies with my kids, they run… Old movies, run credits in the beginning of a movie. Have you ever noticed that?
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
There’d be 10 minutes of credits before old movies.
Matt Mulcock:
Oh. Dude. The intros to movies.
[laughter]
Ryan Isaac:
That’s what I’m talking about.
Matt Mulcock:
I watch old school Disney movies with my daughter.
Ryan Isaac:
There’s so long.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah. The intros…
Ryan Isaac:
And boring.
Matt Mulcock:
Are you kidding me?
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. That’s a whole song plays…
Matt Mulcock:
Yes. It’s a whole thing.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
Now…
Ryan Isaac:
You can’t do that with today’s kids.
Matt Mulcock:
You kidding me…
Ryan Isaac:
Can’t do with it with me.
Matt Mulcock:
Kids don’t even watch movies. If it’s not a 13 second TikTok, they’re not watching it.
Ryan Isaac:
I’m guilty.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. I’m guilty. So, alright. Avoid sensational media. That checks out. It helps you with your fear of flying [laughter] and…
Matt Mulcock:
And investing.
Ryan Isaac:
And your investing in money decisions. I like that. Number two was speak to a professional.
Matt Mulcock:
Alright. Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. Isn’t this… This is pretty good.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah. This is… Yeah. Honestly.
Ryan Isaac:
It translates speak to a professional. So in that study we were just talking about where… It was a study of where people get their financial advice. It was a good chunk. It was 20 something percent. People said they had a financial advisor.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
But it’s still very low compared to where… The majority was, no one or social media that…
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
That accounted for half of it.
Matt Mulcock:
Also, I’d like to know the problem with saying just generically, I work with a financial advisor.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. That’s very broad.
Matt Mulcock:
: What does that mean?
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
The problem is the definition of financial advisor is so squishy.
Ryan Isaac:
Financial therapist.
Matt Mulcock:
Financial therapist, [laughter], or honestly… It is a problem. We said this in our… The workshop we did, and we tell people this all the time. When you say I go to the dentist, a dentist is a pretty… There’s a baseline there. Barrier to entry…
Ryan Isaac:
It’s pretty definable.
Matt Mulcock:
It’s pretty defined. Right.
Ryan Isaac:
High barrier to entry.
Matt Mulcock:
Exactly.
Ryan Isaac:
You know what you’re doing when you go to the dentist.
Matt Mulcock:
And it’s defined, right?
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. You’re not wondering what they’re doing.
Matt Mulcock:
What do they do? Now with that said. A, yes. There’s crappy dentists out there.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
Just like there’s crappy…
Ryan Isaac:
None of these listeners.
Matt Mulcock:
None of these listeners.
Ryan Isaac:
None of these listeners.
Matt Mulcock:
But also, yeah. Could you go to a dentist where some do crown and bridge? Some do Just drill and fill.
Ryan Isaac:
Specialty.
Matt Mulcock:
Some do… Yeah. Of course. But you know a dentist means the same thing… Pretty much across the board. Financial advisor, not this, not the case.
Ryan Isaac:
Not even close.
Matt Mulcock:
So when someone says, I work with a financial advisor of that 20% of that survey, it’s okay, well how many of those are just insurance people?
Ryan Isaac:
If it’s based on the numbers of our industry, which is 80% of our industry is still commission based sales people.
Matt Mulcock:
Commission based sales people.
Ryan Isaac:
Then it’s 80% of that 20% is probably that experience.
Matt Mulcock:
Exactly. Yep.
Ryan Isaac:
So it’s very low.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
The people who are getting legit… Advice and planning and big picture thinking and discussion and curiosity from an advisor. Yeah, that’s pretty low. So speak to a professional, that’s really good advice. And I mean, there’s more ways to engage with someone competent and qualified than ever before. I mean, I’m not saying get advice from ChatGPT. But. Maybe. But I mean, it just depends what you need. Like, do you need a simple portfolio built for your small IRA that’s been rolling over for 15 years? There’s an app for it on your iPhone. Do you want someone’s personal email address and who will call you back whenever you have a question about your financial picture any time throughout the year? Then you need a human who specializes in your life.
Matt Mulcock:
There’s levels to this.
Ryan Isaac:
There’s levels to this. And there’s a lot of things in between. In Dentist advisors, we’ve tried to, and we’re always working on ways to, how do we engage different levels of people? We’ve done that over the last few years. About a quarter of our clients now are associates. They’re not even owners. That didn’t used to be a thing.
Matt Mulcock:
Levels or?
Ryan Isaac:
Early career.
Matt Mulcock:
Personalities.
Ryan Isaac:
Personality types. Do you outsource everything? Do you want someone else to just do this stuff for you? Or do you like a little bit of, what do we call it? Validation, validator. Do you want a little bit of validation from someone but you want to do mostly everything yourself with some technology and do it yourself time?
Matt Mulcock:
Do you want a relationship with someone who’s gonna build that up with you over the course of years and when you call them, they’re gonna know everything about you and when you bring up a question, they’re gonna know the contextual, the whole context behind it? That’s different than saying, oh, I just need to be able to have access to someone once a year and just general questions or whatever. Yeah, we’re trying our best to try to find an offering across that whole spectrum.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah, and so that’s a good series of questions to ask yourself, like what do I want from somebody? What kind of engagement do I want? How much am I trying to offload versus keep on my own plate? That’s good. This next point doesn’t seem like it directly relates but then I just thought about the field of dentistry and like, oh yeah, it does. She wrote meditation and controlled breathing as a way to overcome her fear of flying. As it relates to finances and overcoming like your maybe negative interaction with money, your physical health is gigantic.
Matt Mulcock:
Huge, my mental health.
Ryan Isaac:
It’s mental health, physical health, like stuff that has nothing to do with money will affect your relationship with money and your decision making around it. The things that drive your decisions that make you either fear or put you in greed, your mental and physical health will have such a big, it’ll have a huge impact. I’ve been surprised in my career, I wouldn’t have thought before working with dentists for a long time that physical health actually deteriorates in dentists like fairly quickly at a pretty young age.
Matt Mulcock:
I’ve been very surprised at how many people into their 40s are suffering from a lot of physical ailments just from the nature of the job. And mentally, emotionally from the nature of the job.
Ryan Isaac:
It’s a lonely profession.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah, that’s what they’ll say. It can be very lonely, it can be very monotonous, it can be very rote. So, man, and financially speaking, the longevity of a dental career might be one of the biggest tools in your control for your finances. The longer you can have an income from dentistry in one way or another, it doesn’t need to be, you don’t have to be an owner in five days a week forever.
Matt Mulcock:
Could be teaching. Yeah. Could be running a practice.
Ryan Isaac:
Could be running associate. Running a practice, be an associate. Something, the longer you can drag out the income from the field of dentistry, the way better off your financial picture would be, but that is impossible to do if you are breaking down mentally and emotionally and physically. So, I mean, she’s talking about in the moment doing something to control the fear of flying, but I don’t think it can be overestimated the importance of maintaining health in the career of dentistry for your money.
Matt Mulcock:
Totally.
Ryan Isaac:
To protect the longevity of the career.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah, I’ve written about this before when I used to still write, which I don’t do for, I haven’t done for a while.
Ryan Isaac:
You got a few things going on.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah, just a few. But this whole idea of the non-financial things you should be doing that improve your finances, and this relates to that perfectly, is the mental health, getting enough sleep, exercising, taking care of yourself. A lot of times that stuff gets sacrificed as opposed to focused on until it’s too late or until you realize.
Ryan Isaac:
You can’t even enjoy it.
Matt Mulcock:
Oh my gosh, I haven’t been getting sleep ’cause I’ve been grinding, and this is a very American thing, rising grind, I’ll sleep when I’m dead mentality. I think this goes along with that perfectly. It impacts your ability to produce, it impacts your ability to manage a team, to be present with your team, to be present with your patients, to invest and have discipline with investing. It impacts everything.
Ryan Isaac:
It’ll give you so much more patience and calmness and decision making and insight and yeah. I remember going mountain biking with a client a few years back. He’s like 10 years older than me, very successful human being, very high net worth, tons of investments inside and outside of dentistry that have paid off. But I remember him telling me when we were on this mountain, it was me and him and Reese. Shout out to Greg.
Matt Mulcock:
Shout out Greg and Reese.
Ryan Isaac:
And Reese. Reese was there, but he smoked me and Reese. Like big time and… But I remember him saying the most important investment I’ve ever made and always will make is my health. For that same reason. Like you can’t keep a career going, you don’t have the patience or calmness to make good decisions, and then you can’t even enjoy the money you’re making if you’re just not healthy enough in some way to enjoy it. That’s huge for me. That’s such a high value for me and I think it’s important in dentistry. Another one she wrote here was, she said understand the mechanics of flight. Here’s what I love about this is I think the key to people making better financial decisions and reducing their fear usually stems from a lack of education. We’re scared of stuff we don’t understand. And it never ever stops surprising me how much there is to just learn about money in general, finance, investing. We will have clients who have millions and millions of dollars invested who still have basic questions about what’s happening inside of an investment account. What’s a mutual fund? What’s an ETF again?
Matt Mulcock:
How is that different than the Roth IRA?
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah, what’s a capital gain? It’s… I mean, that’s, this kind of stuff is not taught anywhere. And so I’m, I love, I feel like Reese built this whole company, this whole culture and value system on education, On teaching people. And I think we’re doing a good job and doing our best to keep that kind of value system going, but understanding the mechanics of something. So this goes back to talk to a professional too. You can learn a lot on your own these days for sure. But when you have, when you’re working with somebody who isn’t incentivized to sell you something and is kind of a teacher as a high value or works for a company that has teaching and education as a high value, you can overcome so much fear and paralysis. Like people holding too much cash or waiting on the sidelines, they might be making silly financial decisions because they have fear and a lack of education around some basic stuff.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
That with a little bit of education, you’ve probably seen it a million times. Clients are holding cash and they’re like, I don’t know, I don’t really trust this thing. I don’t wanna buy a building or I don’t wanna have a mutual fund. Like whatever it is, I don’t want a second location. Whatever they’re trying to do or afraid of with a little education, it’s so cool how that can unlock. Like, oh, really? That’s how it works?
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah. You see it click.
Ryan Isaac:
Okay, so this is liquid. I can have my money. It’s transparent, I control it. This is how I diversify. Cut my, lower my, oh, alright, well let’s start a $10,000 a month draft. Like, let’s start saving money. And it took, and they haven’t been doing that for seven years, but a little bit of education. So I love this point, understand the mechanics of it. Education is so powerful. So I really like that.
Matt Mulcock:
I think it’s great. And I think it goes back to what we were saying earlier with the vividness versus reality or probability. Right? I think it’s the same concept. So if you think about this you just gave a great example of like cash versus investing, right? People tend to be, if you ask them, are you more afraid over the next 10, 20, 30 years? Does investing your money in the stock market seem scarier or riskier than putting it in cash? I would guess most people would say, oh, it feels safer to keep it in cash.
Ryan Isaac:
Oh yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
Right?
Ryan Isaac:
Oh yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
But once you can educate someone and say, actually, like, truly, that is far riskier because the only real, real risk when it comes to investing your money is the only risk you should really care about is permanent risk of loss.
Ryan Isaac:
Goes away, never comes back.
Matt Mulcock:
Loss capital, right?
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. Not fluctuates.
Matt Mulcock:
Not fluctuates.
Ryan Isaac:
Fluctuations in an investment aren’t the biggest risk.
Matt Mulcock:
Yes. So uncertain.
Ryan Isaac:
Permanently losing it.
Matt Mulcock:
And risk and uncertainty are two different things, right? So when you explain this and say, actually over the next, over the course of your career, it is actually far riskier for you to keep sitting in cash. Oh yeah. Over the next five years, it’s far riskier for you. And once you can help have that conversation, this is a great example of, again, that vividness versus reality. And like you said, once you have that click with someone and they’re like, oh my gosh, you’re actually, yeah. Right? Like this is way scarier overall to my actual wealth and way riskier over the next 20, 30 years than investing in something that seems uncertain in the short term. Yeah. So that’s a, to me, just an example of saying great, once you’re able to educate either yourself or you talk to a professional and they’re able to have that conversation, you shift your mindset. And all of a sudden you’re not as afraid to fly, you’re not as afraid to invest.
Ryan Isaac:
Little bit of education, I love, I love that you started this whole thing with the connection between vividness, how easy it is to imagine something.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Or how like sensational it is. Yep. And probability and the link between those two, because you’re right, the, the mathematics of holding cash or investing in something that’s, you know, tried and true and proven, whatever, it’s not even close. The math, the probability’s not even close. It’s kinda of like shark attack or car accident. It’s not even close. Not even close, but how sensational and dramatic it feels to lose all your money in the stock market. That feels like the most common thing in the world. Yeah. Like, oh, I lost all my money in the stock market. Yeah. You know, mom was gonna retire and then she lost everything in the stock market. It’s like, no.
Matt Mulcock:
Well. What do you, honestly, that’s a great example. What do you think of stock market? O809.
Ryan Isaac:
The Great Depression movies.
Matt Mulcock:
Great depression.com bubble. Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Right?
Matt Mulcock:
You think of all these things. What you don’t think about is the fact that this, the S&P 500 is up 3000%. Yeah since 1980.
Ryan Isaac:
It just slowly gets like 10-12% every like, on average over years and years. And that’s…
Matt Mulcock:
I’m just making numbers up by the way, but.
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good number. Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
Sounds good.
Ryan Isaac:
I like that number. Yeah, I love that connection. We gotta, we should do a whole, there’s gotta be studies on, on the connection studies and psychological listening studies. Yeah. Alright. One more. I thought this was fantastic too. Shout out to, what was her name again?
Matt Mulcock:
Something Fan? Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
I’ll go, let’s see. I want to tell her name Katherine Fan.
Matt Mulcock:
Katherine Fan.
Matt Mulcock:
Pointsguy.com. Okay. Her last one here was, pick the right seat on the right aircraft. Like what?
Matt Mulcock:
Love that. Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
It was so good, man. Yeah.
Matt Mulcock:
Like this is a dang good money article.
Ryan Isaac:
This is such a good money article.
Matt Mulcock:
I think we should message her.
Ryan Isaac:
I, you know what? Honestly, maybe we’ll like tag her in it or find out who she is and if she likes that [laughter] or not [laughter] she’s like.
Matt Mulcock:
She’s like, don’t.
Ryan Isaac:
I hate the way you presented my article.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah. Thank you for that.
Ryan Isaac:
Thanks for ruining it. Losers. My fear of flying was not fodder.
Matt Mulcock:
Actually, keep your name my name out of your mouth.
Matt Mulcock:
Out of your mouth is terrible. Thank you. Yeah. Hate your podcast [laughter] Like picking the right sit on the right aircraft, man, people ask us all the time, what’s the best investment? Unless we’re talking about a scam versus not a scam. Yeah. That’s, there’s not an answer to that question. There isn’t There.
Matt Mulcock:
There is one.
Ryan Isaac:
What?
Matt Mulcock:
The one you can stick to.
Ryan Isaac:
The one you can stick to. Yeah. Is it growing multiple practices? Is it growing a portfolio of real estate? Is it a portfolio of stocks and bonds and mutual funds? Is it a combo? Some of those?
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
What can you do for 30 years? Or probably more likely 50, because it’s not just your working years. You have to do this for.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah, exactly.
Ryan Isaac:
You gotta do, what can you do for half a century or more? That’s the one you should do. So picking the right vehicle and participating in the right way. Maybe you have stocks and bonds, but you want a pretty conservative portfolio.
Matt Mulcock:
Yeah.
Ryan Isaac:
Then don’t have a portfolio of like 10 companies, individual stocks. Don’t put Crypto in there. Don’t do risky options trading. Like have a balanced mix of like diversified low cost investments and hold it for a long time.
Matt Mulcock:
And just stick to it.
Ryan Isaac:
And stick to it. If you’re a real estate person, if you wanna build multiple practices, like what can you stick to for a long period of time, that’s what to do. But that’s the, the right seat in the right plane. But what does that take though, Matt? How do you even understand that about yourself? Because some of it honestly is just time. You have to go through life, you gotta get jobs, you gotta move around.
Matt Mulcock:
Some experience.
Ryan Isaac:
You have to experience experiment with stuff.
Matt Mulcock:
You gotta make mistakes.
Ryan Isaac:
You have to make mistakes. So how do you safely navigate that then while you get to know yourself?
Matt Mulcock:
I think you’ve got to something we’ve said, a bunch. Is A, you gotta get organized. You gotta know where all your money is.
Ryan Isaac:
Don’t be blind when you’re making decisions.
Matt Mulcock:
Exactly. Yeah. Don’t just go with like, what feels good. And then I would say like make, especially when we’re talking about investing specifically, like make incremental Bets make like be fine paying tuition, which is just, that’s all making mistakes is. Is paying tuition to learn, but do it in a way that you can recover. Yeah. You know, don’t ever risk something that you’re like.
Ryan Isaac:
You can’t come back from.
Matt Mulcock:
If I do this, I can’t recover. Totally. Right. I can’t come back from this. So if you just feel the need, you have to go learn. Maybe you’re that person that has to learn by experiencing, that’s okay.
Ryan Isaac:
That’s okay.
Matt Mulcock:
You can’t listen to us and say, oh, I, I’m gonna believe those guys. That’s totally fine. Yeah. Or not just us, anybody. You’re like, I have to experience this. Awesome. Do it in a way that paying tuition does, like, doesn’t blow you up.
Ryan Isaac:
So I think you just referenced the rest of our article. So how do you go about navigating and experiencing until you know what the right seat in the right aircraft is for you? This goes back to understand the mechanics of something. Yeah. Education. It goes back to, speak to a professional. It goes back to avoiding sensational information, right? Some of those things can help you place a little, place, some bets in life, experiment a little bit, navigate some stuff. Maybe you try a rental property. Maybe you try a job at an office that you know was outside of your comfort zone, a city you didn’t think you’d like, like whatever, build your first investment portfolio. Hold it for a while, see what happens.
Matt Mulcock:
Hey, this could be something as simple as an associate moving to a new city thinking that they’re gonna buy a practice.
Ryan Isaac:
There you go. 100 percent.
Matt Mulcock:
So the, maybe they do buy a practice. And the question always is, do I rent a house or do I buy a house right away? And the answer to that most always is you rent first. That is an example of placing a bet. To learn with a situation that you can always back out of.
Ryan Isaac:
If it doesn’t work for you.
Matt Mulcock:
And, and you can, yeah. You could maybe still consider it a waste of money or a mistake if you end up backing out of it, but that’s an example of saying, I am making an incremental bet. To have some experience, ’cause that’s maybe something you have to actually experience something like that to even know, like before you can answer it like, what, what I’m gonna do what you’re gonna do long term. Yeah, totally. So stuff like that, you just, sometimes you just gotta do it. And figure it out later. But before you do it, say, okay, what if this goes wrong?
Ryan Isaac:
Yeah. Build your own safety net.
Matt Mulcock:
What are the consequences.
Ryan Isaac:
And there’s ways to do it. And that way you can get to know yourself and where your life’s headed. And some, 10 years from now, I’ll probably think totally different than I do now too. But you can do things to give yourself some safety nets and not, you know, know blow up years of progress in one bad financial decision while you learn how to pick the right seat on the right aircraft. So shout out to her. That was great.
Matt Mulcock:
That’s great. Katherine Fan. Katherine Fan. Yeah. Yeah. Pointsguy.com.
Matt Mulcock:
Honestly Great article.
Ryan Isaac:
So, anyway, for all those you are afraid of flying, shout out to you. Or you can also read this article and overcome your fear of flying.
Matt Mulcock:
I was to say, if you are listening and say, well, I, I am fine with my money, money, but I am terrified of flying.
Ryan Isaac:
But I am terrified Flying. There you go. Flip it, flip the script and you’re good. Any parting words?
Matt Mulcock:
You’re great. No problem. [laughter] geez. Love hanging with you.
Ryan Isaac:
Just Blushed. Alright. Thanks all of you for tuning in, and if you have any questions, dentistadvisors.com and we’ll catch you next time on another episode of the Dentist Money Show. Bye-bye now.